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	<title>Comments on: So Simple Even My Students Understand It</title>
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	<link>http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/</link>
	<description>Where History, Heritage, and Education Intersect</description>
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		<title>By: swp</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3175</link>
		<dc:creator>swp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3175</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;My father was from a Southern Ga Civil War family.  His family wrote books and in some cases devoted their lives to explaining the South.  I really hated it and tried my best to block any word on the subject from memory.  But, I guess the thing I think people miss is how much people wanted the war to end.  For so many years following the war the tension in the impoverished South was on the edge of violence.  My ancestor who was an editor of a major newpaper, never recorded his own political opinion.  They talked about the death.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My father was the fifth generation of a lineage of males who&#039;s father was lost in a war by the age of 9 (they were loyalists during the American Revolution).  He felt his culture it was silenced and all words published about the war were from the north.  Even the Thirty Year War (Mom&#039;s side of the family), drove Germans to the Carolinas and heartland where they fought in these wars (but no one in her family died).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m reading about the Civil War now because I wonder if war was the best solution.  I don&#039;t actually know much though.  Why not pressure England to quit trading with the South since they had made slavery illegal in  England?  Why did they build Southern Warship?  How much did the north play in continuing the role of slavery in controlling Black riots in New Orleans, or the Trail of Tears.  Since Whites were outnumbered in the South I think Blacks eventually would have taken control.  Although I suspect they would have legislated the same oppression they had been taught.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ve been left with the feeling that wars are murder and murder is immoral.  When people fantasize about political actions as though they are games of winners and losers, I feel very sad.  It&#039;s all about the flag waving and then death that lasts for centuries.  &lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My father was from a Southern Ga Civil War family.  His family wrote books and in some cases devoted their lives to explaining the South.  I really hated it and tried my best to block any word on the subject from memory.  But, I guess the thing I think people miss is how much people wanted the war to end.  For so many years following the war the tension in the impoverished South was on the edge of violence.  My ancestor who was an editor of a major newpaper, never recorded his own political opinion.  They talked about the death.</p>
<p>My father was the fifth generation of a lineage of males who&#8217;s father was lost in a war by the age of 9 (they were loyalists during the American Revolution).  He felt his culture it was silenced and all words published about the war were from the north.  Even the Thirty Year War (Mom&#8217;s side of the family), drove Germans to the Carolinas and heartland where they fought in these wars (but no one in her family died).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reading about the Civil War now because I wonder if war was the best solution.  I don&#8217;t actually know much though.  Why not pressure England to quit trading with the South since they had made slavery illegal in  England?  Why did they build Southern Warship?  How much did the north play in continuing the role of slavery in controlling Black riots in New Orleans, or the Trail of Tears.  Since Whites were outnumbered in the South I think Blacks eventually would have taken control.  Although I suspect they would have legislated the same oppression they had been taught.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been left with the feeling that wars are murder and murder is immoral.  When people fantasize about political actions as though they are games of winners and losers, I feel very sad.  It&#8217;s all about the flag waving and then death that lasts for centuries.  </p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3174</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3174</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bruce, -- Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post.  I agree with much of what you said and encourage you to consult some of the titles that I referenced in my review of the movie.  Pay careful attention to Grimsley and Glatthaar&#039;s books.  You are correct in pointing to Schlesinger as an example of someone who never lost sight of the moral dimension of history.  I was definitely not suggesting that we should not pay attention to morality, but that an emotional/moral conclusion should not be driving the historical cart.  In other words, careful study should inform our moral judgments and not the other way around.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thanks again.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, &#8212; Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post.  I agree with much of what you said and encourage you to consult some of the titles that I referenced in my review of the movie.  Pay careful attention to Grimsley and Glatthaar&#8217;s books.  You are correct in pointing to Schlesinger as an example of someone who never lost sight of the moral dimension of history.  I was definitely not suggesting that we should not pay attention to morality, but that an emotional/moral conclusion should not be driving the historical cart.  In other words, careful study should inform our moral judgments and not the other way around.  </p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Miller</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3173</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3173</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Kevin, I had a couple of thoughts on this.  One is that despite the focus of generations of white Southerners complaining about the terrible, horrible Sherman&#039;s march through Georgia, Sherman&#039;s real innovation in warfare was his focus on attacking economically vital facilities like factories and railroad lines, which yielded the famous &quot;Sherman neckties&quot; (tracks twisted into knots).  Although pre-industrial age armies were known to cause plenty of destruction - the massive carnage and destruction of the Thirty Years War went way beyond even that of the Civil War or any other until the bloodbath we know as the First World War - industrial age warfare depended more immediately on the economic foundations of the home country and on then-high-tech transportation facilities like railroads than pre-industrial armies did.  And since large plantations were a major pillar of the Southern economy, physically laying them waste was part of that approach.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In his marches through Georgia, and his less publicized march through South Carolina of a similar kind, Sherman was striking at what today we would call &quot;strategic&quot; targets, facilities that were significant in aiding the enemy war effort.  I don&#039;t have enough specific knowledge about the Georgia or South Carolina marches to have any detailed judgment about how well he maintained military discipline among his men, although I have the strong impression that he did so pretty well.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It is a subject I want to look at more closely at some point, because in our day of air power and its lavish use in wars, the whole concept of hitting &quot;strategic targets&quot; is a very problematic one.  I know that at some level, part of the point of the Georgia and South Carolina campaigns was psychological, to convince the Confederate Army that they had no hope of winning militarily.  But I wonder to what extent Sherman was trying to do that via the civilian population, hoping they would bring pressure for surrender, and how well that worked.  Because despite the faith of air power advocates since before the Wright brothers took flight that targeting the morale of the enemy&#039;s civilian population will break the other side&#039;s &quot;will&quot;, there is little evidence that it works in practice, and much evidence that it stiffens the enemy population&#039;s determination to fight.  So I&#039;m curious as to how that may have played out in the case of Sherman&#039;s Georgia and South Carolina campaigns.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I recall a conversation as I had in Mississippi as a teenager about the use of air power on civilian targets in Vietnam.  One adult said, &quot;Well, they [the Yankees] did it to us [Southerners of a century before] in the Civil War, why shouldn&#039;t we [contemporary Americans] do it to them [the Vietnamese]?&quot;  A bizarre case of Southern white lore about the ruthlessness and amorality of Sherman serving as the justification for arguably ruthless and amoral air warfare against people whose ancestors had nothing at all to do with the American Civil War.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;While I agree with you about the need to understand various perspectives in looking at historical events, I wouldn&#039;t go so far as to say that a historian (even us part-time and amateur ones) should have &quot;no interest in any type of moral vindication for either side&quot;.  I just came across a 1949 essay by Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., on the Civil War in which he argued that there are some things that are so basic that historians are in fact obligated to take a moral position on them.  He used the case of the Holocaust as an example, although I believe he referred to Nazi Germany in a more general way. We could add the Armenian genocide, the horrors of Rwanda or the Balkans in the 1990s, the burning of witches in early-modern Europe (and America), and others.  As he put it then, if there is anything that we can  say with certainty was morally wrong, then chattel slavery is surely one of them.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But I would also say that, in general, history is a very poor source for people looking for saintly inspiration or moral lessons.  Especially because I think we learn those moral lessons very poorly.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Also, in addition to moral considerations in the broadest, humanitarian sense, there is also the fact that the outcome of the Civil War has been a very determining factor in the development of American democracy.  To the extent that equality before the law and even the general rule of law prevailed (in practice, slaveowners had operated beyond the law in relation to their slaves), then American democracy as we understand its basic elements today did prevail.  While that&#039;s a factual and analytical judgment rather than &quot;moral&quot;, I&#039;m not sure how any supporters of democracy could entirely separate a value judgment from that reality.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, I had a couple of thoughts on this.  One is that despite the focus of generations of white Southerners complaining about the terrible, horrible Sherman&#8217;s march through Georgia, Sherman&#8217;s real innovation in warfare was his focus on attacking economically vital facilities like factories and railroad lines, which yielded the famous &#8220;Sherman neckties&#8221; (tracks twisted into knots).  Although pre-industrial age armies were known to cause plenty of destruction &#8211; the massive carnage and destruction of the Thirty Years War went way beyond even that of the Civil War or any other until the bloodbath we know as the First World War &#8211; industrial age warfare depended more immediately on the economic foundations of the home country and on then-high-tech transportation facilities like railroads than pre-industrial armies did.  And since large plantations were a major pillar of the Southern economy, physically laying them waste was part of that approach.</p>
<p>In his marches through Georgia, and his less publicized march through South Carolina of a similar kind, Sherman was striking at what today we would call &#8220;strategic&#8221; targets, facilities that were significant in aiding the enemy war effort.  I don&#8217;t have enough specific knowledge about the Georgia or South Carolina marches to have any detailed judgment about how well he maintained military discipline among his men, although I have the strong impression that he did so pretty well.</p>
<p>It is a subject I want to look at more closely at some point, because in our day of air power and its lavish use in wars, the whole concept of hitting &#8220;strategic targets&#8221; is a very problematic one.  I know that at some level, part of the point of the Georgia and South Carolina campaigns was psychological, to convince the Confederate Army that they had no hope of winning militarily.  But I wonder to what extent Sherman was trying to do that via the civilian population, hoping they would bring pressure for surrender, and how well that worked.  Because despite the faith of air power advocates since before the Wright brothers took flight that targeting the morale of the enemy&#8217;s civilian population will break the other side&#8217;s &#8220;will&#8221;, there is little evidence that it works in practice, and much evidence that it stiffens the enemy population&#8217;s determination to fight.  So I&#8217;m curious as to how that may have played out in the case of Sherman&#8217;s Georgia and South Carolina campaigns.</p>
<p>I recall a conversation as I had in Mississippi as a teenager about the use of air power on civilian targets in Vietnam.  One adult said, &#8220;Well, they [the Yankees] did it to us [Southerners of a century before] in the Civil War, why shouldn&#8217;t we [contemporary Americans] do it to them [the Vietnamese]?&#8221;  A bizarre case of Southern white lore about the ruthlessness and amorality of Sherman serving as the justification for arguably ruthless and amoral air warfare against people whose ancestors had nothing at all to do with the American Civil War.</p>
<p>While I agree with you about the need to understand various perspectives in looking at historical events, I wouldn&#8217;t go so far as to say that a historian (even us part-time and amateur ones) should have &#8220;no interest in any type of moral vindication for either side&#8221;.  I just came across a 1949 essay by Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., on the Civil War in which he argued that there are some things that are so basic that historians are in fact obligated to take a moral position on them.  He used the case of the Holocaust as an example, although I believe he referred to Nazi Germany in a more general way. We could add the Armenian genocide, the horrors of Rwanda or the Balkans in the 1990s, the burning of witches in early-modern Europe (and America), and others.  As he put it then, if there is anything that we can  say with certainty was morally wrong, then chattel slavery is surely one of them.</p>
<p>But I would also say that, in general, history is a very poor source for people looking for saintly inspiration or moral lessons.  Especially because I think we learn those moral lessons very poorly.</p>
<p>Also, in addition to moral considerations in the broadest, humanitarian sense, there is also the fact that the outcome of the Civil War has been a very determining factor in the development of American democracy.  To the extent that equality before the law and even the general rule of law prevailed (in practice, slaveowners had operated beyond the law in relation to their slaves), then American democracy as we understand its basic elements today did prevail.  While that&#8217;s a factual and analytical judgment rather than &#8220;moral&#8221;, I&#8217;m not sure how any supporters of democracy could entirely separate a value judgment from that reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3172</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3172</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Chris, -- I can&#039;t tell you how nice it is to hear from a fellow high school teacher in the trenches.  I once gave a talk on the reaction of Confederates to the inclusion of USCTs at the battle of the Crater and watched as people literally got up and walked out.  So, at least they stayed for your Q&amp;A.  I should say that that experience only happened once, but I do understand where you are coming from.  The cries of &quot;revision&quot; or &quot;liberal&quot; are unfortunately the tools of those who have read little and understand even less.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Keep up the good work and always hold your ground by forcing the individual to stick to historiography and legitimate argument.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, &#8212; I can&#8217;t tell you how nice it is to hear from a fellow high school teacher in the trenches.  I once gave a talk on the reaction of Confederates to the inclusion of USCTs at the battle of the Crater and watched as people literally got up and walked out.  So, at least they stayed for your Q&#038;A.  I should say that that experience only happened once, but I do understand where you are coming from.  The cries of &#8220;revision&#8221; or &#8220;liberal&#8221; are unfortunately the tools of those who have read little and understand even less.  </p>
<p>Keep up the good work and always hold your ground by forcing the individual to stick to historiography and legitimate argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Paysinger</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3171</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Paysinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/2007/04/23/so-simple-even-my-students-understand-it/#comment-3171</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m pretty amazed at how much of a visceral reaction people still have about the Civil War. I can&#039;t imagine not being abe to separate personal feelings from historiography. I recently spoke to a local group about my Master&#039;s thesis topic that deals with Union war policy and the small North Alabama town in which I live. During the question and answer session, more time was spent asking about the potential liberal leanings of my profs vs. my findings.  &lt;br /&gt;
They were also more concerned about the &quot;causes&quot; of the war rather than the topic. For me it&#039;s frustrating that I sometimes feel that I have to be cafeful and take into account my audience when discussing the Civil War. Even in my high school class, I have parents who get upset that I &quot;stress&quot; the role slavery played in the move to secession. Just a diatribe.... &lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty amazed at how much of a visceral reaction people still have about the Civil War. I can&#8217;t imagine not being abe to separate personal feelings from historiography. I recently spoke to a local group about my Master&#8217;s thesis topic that deals with Union war policy and the small North Alabama town in which I live. During the question and answer session, more time was spent asking about the potential liberal leanings of my profs vs. my findings.  <br />
They were also more concerned about the &#8220;causes&#8221; of the war rather than the topic. For me it&#8217;s frustrating that I sometimes feel that I have to be cafeful and take into account my audience when discussing the Civil War. Even in my high school class, I have parents who get upset that I &#8220;stress&#8221; the role slavery played in the move to secession. Just a diatribe&#8230;. </p>
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