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	<title>Comments on: Are History Textbooks On Their Way Out?</title>
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	<description>Reflections of a High School History Teacher &#38; Civil War Historian</description>
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		<title>By: A Response To The Textbook Debate &#124; David S. Bill IV</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-7206</link>
		<dc:creator>A Response To The Textbook Debate &#124; David S. Bill IV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-7206</guid>
		<description>[...] is a cross post from a comment I wrote on Kevin Levin&#8217;s blog.  He had written a response to my earlier post about textbooks and the role of the Internet.  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is a cross post from a comment I wrote on Kevin Levin&#8217;s blog.  He had written a response to my earlier post about textbooks and the role of the Internet.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Bill</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-7205</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-7205</guid>
		<description>Kevin.  

I&#039;ve got to say, I&#039;m impressed with the reaction to your post.  I was going to post earlier but I&#039;m actually glad I waited.  So here goes.

The Internet will only become a larger part of our lives, whether you like it or not.  Our responsibility as educators, notice I say educators not teachers, is to prepare our students, we&#039;d all agree on that.  But, if we introduce the skills (no matter the discipline) we want students to learn with traditional methods,  our students will lose interest.  They are growing up in a world of constant connectivity.  Say what you will about this, that&#039;s the way it is.  The idea behind my post in response to &quot;Joe&#039;s Non-Netbook&quot; was to highlight the fact that learning without a textbook and the skills we want them to learn go hand in hand.  

If we as educators determine the core skills that we want our students to master, we can use any number of resources, we are not tied to the textbook.  

As for history, we are trying to engage our students in a scholarly dialog.  If we present them with multimedia (video, maps, art, charts etc.) as well as several text websites that are dedicated to a certain topic but have slight differences, the class can then determine those differences on their own not having to rely upon a textbook to tell them.  As for the scholarly perspective, you can post two JSTOR articles from different historians and have the students debate the arguments and then write analytical responses on their blogs about the core differences in the two articles.   

Textbook or no textbook, the skills we want our students to learn are still the same: be able to think and write like a historian.  If we want to do justice to our students and keep them interested, we must acknowledge that our students consume information differently.  If we completely ignore that fact we are doing them a disservice.  While the top 10% of the class can understand the argument by simply reading a textbook, we are missing out on the 90% who need audio or visuals that are NOT available in a textbook.  Yes, this  approach will take some extra time and planning to post all the resources on-line ahead of time but the benefit for the entire class is well worth the effort. 

As for other disciplines like math.  Yes, math is different but that doesn&#039;t mean that students can only learn from a textbook.  Dan Meyer, a math teacher in California proves this very convincingly.  Here are two examples of what he does with his class: http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=213 and http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=440

To sum up, textbooks not only cost a great deal of money but they cost our students&#039; potential to learn.  With a different approach to how we educate our students and using the plethora of  multimedia and text resources available on-line, we are not only saving money but doing a great deal of good in helping to keep our students interested and wanting to learn the skills we are &quot;teaching&quot;.  

Ok, I&#039;m done.  Sorry for the rant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve got to say, I&#8217;m impressed with the reaction to your post.  I was going to post earlier but I&#8217;m actually glad I waited.  So here goes.</p>
<p>The Internet will only become a larger part of our lives, whether you like it or not.  Our responsibility as educators, notice I say educators not teachers, is to prepare our students, we&#8217;d all agree on that.  But, if we introduce the skills (no matter the discipline) we want students to learn with traditional methods,  our students will lose interest.  They are growing up in a world of constant connectivity.  Say what you will about this, that&#8217;s the way it is.  The idea behind my post in response to &#8220;Joe&#8217;s Non-Netbook&#8221; was to highlight the fact that learning without a textbook and the skills we want them to learn go hand in hand.  </p>
<p>If we as educators determine the core skills that we want our students to master, we can use any number of resources, we are not tied to the textbook.  </p>
<p>As for history, we are trying to engage our students in a scholarly dialog.  If we present them with multimedia (video, maps, art, charts etc.) as well as several text websites that are dedicated to a certain topic but have slight differences, the class can then determine those differences on their own not having to rely upon a textbook to tell them.  As for the scholarly perspective, you can post two JSTOR articles from different historians and have the students debate the arguments and then write analytical responses on their blogs about the core differences in the two articles.   </p>
<p>Textbook or no textbook, the skills we want our students to learn are still the same: be able to think and write like a historian.  If we want to do justice to our students and keep them interested, we must acknowledge that our students consume information differently.  If we completely ignore that fact we are doing them a disservice.  While the top 10% of the class can understand the argument by simply reading a textbook, we are missing out on the 90% who need audio or visuals that are NOT available in a textbook.  Yes, this  approach will take some extra time and planning to post all the resources on-line ahead of time but the benefit for the entire class is well worth the effort. </p>
<p>As for other disciplines like math.  Yes, math is different but that doesn&#8217;t mean that students can only learn from a textbook.  Dan Meyer, a math teacher in California proves this very convincingly.  Here are two examples of what he does with his class: <a href="http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=213" rel="nofollow">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=213</a> and <a href="http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=440" rel="nofollow">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=440</a></p>
<p>To sum up, textbooks not only cost a great deal of money but they cost our students&#8217; potential to learn.  With a different approach to how we educate our students and using the plethora of  multimedia and text resources available on-line, we are not only saving money but doing a great deal of good in helping to keep our students interested and wanting to learn the skills we are &#8220;teaching&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Ok, I&#8217;m done.  Sorry for the rant.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-6989</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-6989</guid>
		<description>Woodrow,

All good points.  I also assign journal articles in limited cases and my students have access to JSTOR, which makes it very easy.  My students also have access to ProQuest which is another dynamite database that offers essays and book reviews from thousands of popular magazines and scholarly publications.  The Internet does force instructors to spend much more time on teaching students to judge individual sites, but it seems to me that this is our responsibility.  As for copying...well...I do all of that myself. It does involve more time, but it goes with the territory.  Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woodrow,</p>
<p>All good points.  I also assign journal articles in limited cases and my students have access to JSTOR, which makes it very easy.  My students also have access to ProQuest which is another dynamite database that offers essays and book reviews from thousands of popular magazines and scholarly publications.  The Internet does force instructors to spend much more time on teaching students to judge individual sites, but it seems to me that this is our responsibility.  As for copying&#8230;well&#8230;I do all of that myself. It does involve more time, but it goes with the territory.  Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Woodrowfan</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-6987</link>
		<dc:creator>Woodrowfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-6987</guid>
		<description>One thing keeps me using a textbook in my classes: copyright laws.  My university has very strict rules about what can be copied and what can be placed on reserve at the library.  I can&#039;t copy more than 10 pages on the department copier.  More than ten pages and I have to go to the copy center, and the copy center refuses to copy anything copyrighted without a letter from the publisher.  When I was in grad school in the early 1980s I remember some classes had collections of readings that were put together by the professor and copied at the local Kinkos.  All you had to do was sign a form saying that the copies were being made under &quot;fair use&quot; provisions and viola, a bound set of readings.  You can&#039;t do that anymore.

An example: last year I wanted my Public History students to read two chapters in &quot;Confederates in the Attic.&quot;  I didn&#039;t want to require the class to buy a  copy as money is sometimes tight for some of my students.  I decided to reserve a copy of the book in the library and make a Xerox of the two required chapters so there  would be more than the single copy available. 

Unfortunately I was refused permission to place the copied chapters on reserve.  One copied chapter was fine.  So was reserving the entire book. But putting two chapters on reserve violated some invisible line.  I ended up putting one copy of the book on reserve and loaning the Xeroxed chapters (and my own copy of the book) to my students myself.  Fortunately it was a smallish class.  A few bought the book (and loved it), but I am sure a few of my less-motivated  students barely read it because the reserve copy was checked out.

There are work-arounds.  In the past I&#039;ve printed copies of short articles on my printer at home.  I can download pdf copies of relevant articles from JSTOR and post them on Blackboard for my classes.  I&#039;ve even sat and scanned in articles unavailable online as pdfs and made them into pdfs myself.  Fortunately I have the time and ability that I can make outside readings this way.  But what of the new professor with a full class load, or the high school teacher with a full plate of classes and afterschool duties, or the harried adjunct teaching several classes at different schools?  

Of course there is also the &quot;this is the book the department uses, so you&#039;re using it.&quot;  That&#039;s how I picked the book for my survey classes.

One final note: I prefer using articles from good history journals rather than material from the internet because I know they&#039;ve gone through peer review.  I have used some readings from the internet in the past, including several very good pieces that you&#039;ve linked on this site.  But I would rather use an article that has already been through some review by others in my field than 90% of what I see for free on the web.  Having said that, I know there is some very good material out there.  History Matters and Gilder-Lehrman have wonderful resources.  However, for an upper division college class you can&#039;t beat a good professional journal for readings….</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing keeps me using a textbook in my classes: copyright laws.  My university has very strict rules about what can be copied and what can be placed on reserve at the library.  I can&#8217;t copy more than 10 pages on the department copier.  More than ten pages and I have to go to the copy center, and the copy center refuses to copy anything copyrighted without a letter from the publisher.  When I was in grad school in the early 1980s I remember some classes had collections of readings that were put together by the professor and copied at the local Kinkos.  All you had to do was sign a form saying that the copies were being made under &#8220;fair use&#8221; provisions and viola, a bound set of readings.  You can&#8217;t do that anymore.</p>
<p>An example: last year I wanted my Public History students to read two chapters in &#8220;Confederates in the Attic.&#8221;  I didn&#8217;t want to require the class to buy a  copy as money is sometimes tight for some of my students.  I decided to reserve a copy of the book in the library and make a Xerox of the two required chapters so there  would be more than the single copy available. </p>
<p>Unfortunately I was refused permission to place the copied chapters on reserve.  One copied chapter was fine.  So was reserving the entire book. But putting two chapters on reserve violated some invisible line.  I ended up putting one copy of the book on reserve and loaning the Xeroxed chapters (and my own copy of the book) to my students myself.  Fortunately it was a smallish class.  A few bought the book (and loved it), but I am sure a few of my less-motivated  students barely read it because the reserve copy was checked out.</p>
<p>There are work-arounds.  In the past I&#8217;ve printed copies of short articles on my printer at home.  I can download pdf copies of relevant articles from JSTOR and post them on Blackboard for my classes.  I&#8217;ve even sat and scanned in articles unavailable online as pdfs and made them into pdfs myself.  Fortunately I have the time and ability that I can make outside readings this way.  But what of the new professor with a full class load, or the high school teacher with a full plate of classes and afterschool duties, or the harried adjunct teaching several classes at different schools?  </p>
<p>Of course there is also the &#8220;this is the book the department uses, so you&#8217;re using it.&#8221;  That&#8217;s how I picked the book for my survey classes.</p>
<p>One final note: I prefer using articles from good history journals rather than material from the internet because I know they&#8217;ve gone through peer review.  I have used some readings from the internet in the past, including several very good pieces that you&#8217;ve linked on this site.  But I would rather use an article that has already been through some review by others in my field than 90% of what I see for free on the web.  Having said that, I know there is some very good material out there.  History Matters and Gilder-Lehrman have wonderful resources.  However, for an upper division college class you can&#8217;t beat a good professional journal for readings….</p>
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		<title>By: James F. Epperson</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-6953</link>
		<dc:creator>James F. Epperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-6953</guid>
		<description>One *big* difference between math and history with regard to recent technology, is that there isn&#039;t much role in math for things like the Lincoln Papers Online or the Guild Press OR CD.  I&#039;m sure some mathematician&#039;s papers are online, but right now I can&#039;t name one.  (Wait, I think Euler&#039;s papers are being put online.) [Who is Euler?  One of the greatest mathematical minds, ever.  Swiss-born, worked in Prussia and Russia, died in the late 1700&#039;s.]  The propagation of searchable collections, I would think, has made a big impact on historical research.  I know that my two published articles (one in Columbiad in 1998, one in CWT in 2002) would have been a lot more difficult to do w/o things like the OR CD.

I was right; Euler&#039;s papers are online:

http://math.dartmouth.edu/~euler/

Why they are at Dartmouth is beyond me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One *big* difference between math and history with regard to recent technology, is that there isn&#8217;t much role in math for things like the Lincoln Papers Online or the Guild Press OR CD.  I&#8217;m sure some mathematician&#8217;s papers are online, but right now I can&#8217;t name one.  (Wait, I think Euler&#8217;s papers are being put online.) [Who is Euler?  One of the greatest mathematical minds, ever.  Swiss-born, worked in Prussia and Russia, died in the late 1700's.]  The propagation of searchable collections, I would think, has made a big impact on historical research.  I know that my two published articles (one in Columbiad in 1998, one in CWT in 2002) would have been a lot more difficult to do w/o things like the OR CD.</p>
<p>I was right; Euler&#8217;s papers are online:</p>
<p><a href="http://math.dartmouth.edu/~euler/" rel="nofollow">http://math.dartmouth.edu/~euler/</a></p>
<p>Why they are at Dartmouth is beyond me.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Moore</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-6951</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-6951</guid>
		<description>James, I think textbooks will be safe for sometime. Ultimately, we are in the midst of a technology wave and we&#039;re trying to figure out where traditional applications stand considering everything that is already here and what is coming down the pike. There&#039;s a lot to consider, but I think we can all agree that change doesn&#039;t come quickly or easily. There are a number of studies to conduct to see how effective certain things really are in educational environments (I think a lot of this might be a reality check to see if some theories work in real world settings).  I have considered several ways to enhance presentations of history and how to educate others on how to read those presentations. It&#039;s pretty exciting stuff and that&#039;s probably why I&#039;m eyeing a PhD in Instructional Design and Technology. Of course, I&#039;m sure my wife wants me to take the extended plan in lieu of hitting it full speed this time... I have one heck of a honey-do list right now waiting for me after graduation! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, I think textbooks will be safe for sometime. Ultimately, we are in the midst of a technology wave and we&#8217;re trying to figure out where traditional applications stand considering everything that is already here and what is coming down the pike. There&#8217;s a lot to consider, but I think we can all agree that change doesn&#8217;t come quickly or easily. There are a number of studies to conduct to see how effective certain things really are in educational environments (I think a lot of this might be a reality check to see if some theories work in real world settings).  I have considered several ways to enhance presentations of history and how to educate others on how to read those presentations. It&#8217;s pretty exciting stuff and that&#8217;s probably why I&#8217;m eyeing a PhD in Instructional Design and Technology. Of course, I&#8217;m sure my wife wants me to take the extended plan in lieu of hitting it full speed this time&#8230; I have one heck of a honey-do list right now waiting for me after graduation! <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-6950</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-6950</guid>
		<description>Robert,

Yes, I couldn&#039;t agree more.  All of these are things that I need to learn.  That&#039;s what makes this so exciting to me.  

James, 

No need to apologize. :)  That said, I don&#039;t think you have to give up your status as a textbook author to think about how the Internet might broaden your ability to introduce the subject of math.  Thanks again for your comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert,</p>
<p>Yes, I couldn&#8217;t agree more.  All of these are things that I need to learn.  That&#8217;s what makes this so exciting to me.  </p>
<p>James, </p>
<p>No need to apologize. <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   That said, I don&#8217;t think you have to give up your status as a textbook author to think about how the Internet might broaden your ability to introduce the subject of math.  Thanks again for your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Moore</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-6949</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-6949</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

Keying from your comment... &quot;In short, they are both consumers and producers of history&quot;...

I think we also need to look at the digital space as a new environment in which traditional styles of reading and writing are different. Just as much as we have a need for a course in composition or, perhaps, creative writing, as the Web continually develops as a hub for communication and education, we need to start looking at teaching a course in digital literacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>Keying from your comment&#8230; &#8220;In short, they are both consumers and producers of history&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>I think we also need to look at the digital space as a new environment in which traditional styles of reading and writing are different. Just as much as we have a need for a course in composition or, perhaps, creative writing, as the Web continually develops as a hub for communication and education, we need to start looking at teaching a course in digital literacy.</p>
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		<title>By: James F. Epperson</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-6948</link>
		<dc:creator>James F. Epperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-6948</guid>
		<description>&quot;James, I can’t quite figure out (probably because I’m not a math person by a long shot… believe me, it’s pretty pathetic) how digitizing math might be more effective than textbook learning of the same.&quot;---I don&#039;t think Kevin wants to turn his blog into a short course on Web-based math instruction, so I won&#039;t answer at length ;-)  A lot of math has a geometric component, of course, and one can illustrate and even animate the geometry with graphs and figures.  A friend of mine in Alabama did a lot with some online animations for teaching probability and statistics.  I thought of doing similar things with my own area of numerical analysis, but then health and a job change intervened :-(

Kevin, it is entirely possible that my status as a textbook author has colored my thinking.  I&#039;m not going to apologize for that ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;James, I can’t quite figure out (probably because I’m not a math person by a long shot… believe me, it’s pretty pathetic) how digitizing math might be more effective than textbook learning of the same.&#8221;&#8212;I don&#8217;t think Kevin wants to turn his blog into a short course on Web-based math instruction, so I won&#8217;t answer at length <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />   A lot of math has a geometric component, of course, and one can illustrate and even animate the geometry with graphs and figures.  A friend of mine in Alabama did a lot with some online animations for teaching probability and statistics.  I thought of doing similar things with my own area of numerical analysis, but then health and a job change intervened <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Kevin, it is entirely possible that my status as a textbook author has colored my thinking.  I&#8217;m not going to apologize for that <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Robert Moore</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/04/10/are-history-textbooks-on-their-way-out/#comment-6947</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=3396#comment-6947</guid>
		<description>James, I can&#039;t quite figure out (probably because I&#039;m not a math person by a long shot... believe me, it&#039;s pretty pathetic) how digitizing math might be more effective than textbook learning of the same. Yet, as one who has struggled through the subject, I have to wonder how it may have improved my ability to grasp many concepts. From the perspective of an historian, however, I&#039;ve seen a number of &quot;digital means&quot; that an historian has far more power in relating history to students if he/she knows how to use the digital environment. More importantly, I see the flexibility that a reader/user/student has in learning history through digital works. I think I have to clarify, however, that my idea of digital history and someone else&#039;s is probably might be a tad bit different. I&#039;m even more of the mind that historians need to be locked-in to the arts and humanities. I see the potential of a path as a graduate in history with a M.S. degree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, I can&#8217;t quite figure out (probably because I&#8217;m not a math person by a long shot&#8230; believe me, it&#8217;s pretty pathetic) how digitizing math might be more effective than textbook learning of the same. Yet, as one who has struggled through the subject, I have to wonder how it may have improved my ability to grasp many concepts. From the perspective of an historian, however, I&#8217;ve seen a number of &#8220;digital means&#8221; that an historian has far more power in relating history to students if he/she knows how to use the digital environment. More importantly, I see the flexibility that a reader/user/student has in learning history through digital works. I think I have to clarify, however, that my idea of digital history and someone else&#8217;s is probably might be a tad bit different. I&#8217;m even more of the mind that historians need to be locked-in to the arts and humanities. I see the potential of a path as a graduate in history with a M.S. degree.</p>
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