SCV Hoists Another Big Ass Confederate Flag

Kevin I was told by a local SCV Leader here in TX that more are coming all across the South over the next 5 years.

I'm a Southerner and yet I would never support the flag of the people enslaving and murdering, raping and burning, beheading, dismembering, ect... my ancestors. But I guess this idiot knows me better then myself and knows that really I wish I could be there acting a damned fool... I wouldn't like to be there and I'm from South Carolina...

Clayton Bigsby anyone?

Kevin,
I, as a member of the SCV, do not think it is OK to denigrate any Confederate flag. I design t-shirts that educate and honour our heritage. The SCV has often denounced those who misuse the flag. (by the way, I was at the flag raising in Tennessee in June)
It's not only remembering the past and honouring our ancestors; the SCV has an important task trying to educate the public, which is taught lies about history in most public schools. If people understood history, we'd have a lot fewer problems today. It's been 20 years since "The South Was Right" was published, almost 10 years since "When in the Course of Human Events" and "The Politically Incorrect Guide to U.S. History", yet the advances in research have not made a great impact in the education system in general. So we must try harder.
The use of the Confederate battle flag around the world as a symbol of liberty and the struggle against tyranny is well documented and understood in other countries. It is the continued abuse the media inflicts upon us. The issue of the flag is a simple one: If one uses it properly, there is no problem. If one uses it as a tool of hate, it is not the flag, but the heart of the person that is the problem. Until you change the person, you cannot move forward.
Sincerely,
Brett Moffatt

Brett,

First, thanks fort taking the time to write. It's safe to say that most books published in the field of Civil War history have had little impact on the broader society. I consider the three books you referenced to be entirely inadequate when it comes to explaining much of anything related to the Civil War. They do appeal to those who continue to maintain a "Lost Cause" version of the war and I suspect they will continue to do so into the future. There have been very important advances in our understanding of the Civil War over the last 20 years that take us way beyond books such as Kennedy's.

As for the flag, you can no doubt find it being used as a symbol of liberty and freedom, but that does not negate the fact that it was and continues to be used as a symbol of hate. No one has a monopoly on determining the final meaning of a symbol as controversial as the flag and I believe those people who believe it to be a symbol of hate are justified based on the historical facts - specifically the 1950s and 60s. Finally, I have come across way too many distortions of the past by the SCV (specifically in regard to so-called black Confederates) to take the idea of an educational mission seriously. This is not to say that there are not some very smart and honest members who care about the past.

Kevin

That huge flag in Tampa and other locations are doing exactly what they are intended to do.
Get noticed, and start folks talking. This is my opinion as I have no Idea what is in the hearts of others.
It may very well be a recruitment tool, as you know today’s youth doesn’t seem to have a clue about the war.

As for the “Crap” at links on the S.C.V. web site, One mans trash is another mans treasure.
The SCV is like any other organization, it needs funds to operate.

One thing I hate is to see a Naval Jack with Elvis, or a pit bull in the center. it’s a disgrace.
( Remember the Naval Jack is rectangular )

The Man I spoke with is a former Commander of the Army of Northern VA. SCV. He is an honest and hard working man who truly loves our organization.

I can’t help but feel you have a bone to pick with the SCV. I will extend an invitation to you.
If you are in the area on the 4th Monday of the month, come to a camp meeting as my guest.
Unannounced no mention of blogs books or anything, as an unknown. Sit in on the meeting have dinner With the camp, listen to what is said listen to the evening’s program and judge the actions of the camp for yourself. If you can show me an iota of racist activity I will resign.
Or if you prefer I can make arrangements for you to be the speaker. You won’t get rich but you will get gas money and a sack of peanuts.
The ball is in your court ! And the Ice tea comes with the dinner !

Dave Tatum

David,

I very much appreciate the invitation to join you at your SCV meeting. Unfortunately, my busy schedule prevents me from doing so. Actually, I've attended a number of meetings as a guest as well as speaker. I've had different experiences, some good and some bad. I do not "have a bone to pick" with the SCV beyond my questions about how they go about remembering the past and often distorting the historical record.

If the links to the garbage is simply a matter of fund raising problems than that doesn't reflect well on the SCV. So, we are saying it's ok to denigrate the Confederate flag as long as it makes us a buck. Thanks again for the invite.

Dave,

I appreciate the follow up. I appreciate the reference to the distinction, but I was trying to point out that it probably doesn't/shouldn't make a difference given the symbolism. I find it funny that you would cite the SCV as an example of the proper way to fly a flag. Do you really believe that what is flying over the highway outside of Tampa is appropriate or a proper commemoration of Confederate soldiers. In addition, I urge you to browse the SCV websites. There you will see what they really believe about the proper display of the flag. Most of them link to websites that sell all kinds of crap with the Confederate flag on it. The SCV is the last group that I would consult on the proper display of the flag.

By the way, I don't drink much at all so perhaps a couple of iced teas will work. :)

Kevin
I shall try to explain my statement. ( Me & you need to have a beer one evening and I don’t drink )
OK - I brought up the other flags to show that no matter what symbol you display some
one will have a beef with it. I stated that Black Americans have every right to be
Apprehensive of the Battle flag, as it was and is used as a tool of intimidation.
And given your passion for historical accuracy, I decided to try to inform you of the correct
Description of a Battle Flag, as opposed to the other types.
I also stated that the Battle Flag Belongs on a battle field, not on a building !
Flying a Battle flag from your front porch is not the correct way to display it.
Just as we have rules to display the Stars and Stripes, rules are in place about the correct display of the Battle Flag. I was informed of this by a state commander of the S.C.V.
Flying the battle flag is permissible at battle fields and monuments.
I hope this helps explain my statement and reasons for it.

Dave Tatum

Jumpin Jackrabbits !

Ok African Americans have every right to be Apprehensive of the Battle Flag !
As Native Americans have the right to be Apprehensive of the Stars and Stripes.
But just a thought ! The Italian flag has changed since WWII a bit !
Shouldn’t all Americans be Apprehensive of it ? like the Swastika !
What about the flag of Japan ?
Like it or not the flag of Confederate soldiers is here to stay !
But in truth the flag you see in Tampa is NOT the Battle Flag !
It is the Naval Jack. The Battle Flag is square !
Perhaps the flag could be the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Tennessee,
IF the white bands That represent Gods protection were a bit wider.
It is my opinion that the Battle Flag is flown on the field of battle, not from a building !
The Battle flag has a place at monuments as well.
But to each his own. America ain’t it great ?

Best Wishes to All and God Bless

Dave Tatum

We can go around on this issue again if you so choose. I fail to see how bringing up other symbols helps us in any way to better understand the divisiveness of the Confederate flag. Whether or not the flag in Tampa is round, square, rectangular, or triangular it shouldn't be any surprise as to why many Americans find it offensive given its history.

Yes, America is a wonderful place.

I'm soo000000000 tired if hearing that the Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol of hatred. In reality,
to those who are trying to be "historically" correct, the current problem with the displaying of the Stars and Bars didn't come into effect until racial tensions erupted during the 1960s. Unfortunately the "Good Ole Boys", the KKK and other White Supremist groups chose the Confederate Battle Flag as one of their symbols of hatred toward our black brothers and sisters back then. If only they had chosen another flag perhaps the hatred toward our Southern heritage symbol, under which so many loyal southerners died, would have not developed. I challenge anyone reading this reply to find a pre-WWII photograph of the Klu Klux Klan flying a Confederate Battle Flag. You will see "Old Glory", our flag of the United States of America, as well as the holy cross prominately displayed - but no Confederate flag. Why aren't one or both of these items symbols of hatred? Most of us are proud of our U. S. Flag and what it represents and are proud that we were established as "one nation under God". So why can't the true Southern heritage groups like the Sons of Confederate Veterans proudly
display and promote the symbol of their heritage without being condemned. I am proud and honored to admit that I'm a Confederate-American. We Americans are all brothers and sisters regardless of color and have come a long way since the 1960s. Its great that today's generation does
not have to experience the racial tensions that were so strong forty years ago. If only......................

Ed,

Thanks for taking the time to write. Actually, the flag reappeared in the mid-1950s following the Supreme Court case of Brown v. Board of Education. As you are no doubt well aware it was used by various states as a symbol of defiance against what they believed was unjustified federal intrusion. In other words, your characterization that the flag was hijacked by the KKK and others is simply inaccurate in that it fails to address the full story. You are correct in pointing out that the Confederate flag was rarely seen in public before WWII. The SCV has every right to fly the flag on private property. To suggest, however, that African Americans and others are mistaken in their perception of the Confederate flag as a symbol of hate ignores the relevant history.

The best history of the Confederate flag is John Coski's _The Confederate Battle Flag_ (Harvard University Press). Coski is one our foremost experts on the flag and a historian at the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond. I highly recommend it to you.

Sherree,

I think you make a number of excellent points here. No doubt, scholarship can and does often stagnate along certain interpretive lines. That's just the nature of the beast and perhaps (especially with the more academic side of things) has something to do with how the process of scholarship is structured. Once in a while someone comes along and stirs the pot, which leads to new questions, etc. In some ways it's a conservative process. As to your comment re: the sesquicentennial event in Richmond I also tend to agree. At times it did seem like the historians on stage were simply talking to one another, but what are the alternatives when you have an audience of roughly 1,500. I've read so much of the literature that nothing anyone said on stage came as a surprise to me. And yes, there is sometimes a feeling of let's move on and look at it another way. In other ways, however, I thought the scope of the discussion was quite broad and forced the audience to think about a number of central issues from a different perspective.

Kevin,

Sorry you took offense to the Northern Invasion. Let's Call the Issue "Demographics Shifts from North to South". Hey, I am not trying to be a Pain in the Ass - Just Factual.

There's Something Very Positive in the South that Causes these Demographic Shifts:

"The Mason-Dixon Line between North and South has come to have a new meaning: the demarcation between stagnant America and surging America. Every state from Maine to the Mississippi River, the heart of the Democratic electorate, has a growth rate less than the national average. This is the Old America that is losing population and political power.

Practically every southern state from Virginia to Texas enjoys double-digit growth and welcomes new House seats with each Census. This is the New America.

Since 2000, the South has added 3.2 million more people. That’s about the same number that the Northeast and Midwest have lost. In 2000, states in the South and the West gained 12 additional House seats. The Northeast and Midwest lost 10."

http://www.mije.org/bobbibowman/democrats-victo...

Kevin, For those in the South who have since the 1950's have had their population Increase Four Fold or Morse, - "Invasion", Just Joking, but it sure feels like it, especially here in Virginia.

My point is simply that population shifts have taken place in every section of the country at different times. To characterize it as an invasion is simply to share your own perspective, but it tells us nothing about the reasons behind these shifts. Actually, many of them can be explained simply as wanting a better life. It's easy to get hung up on boundaries as constituting something fixed or wall-like.

Sherree,

As always, I appreciate the kind words and support.

I've made my home in Virginia now going on ten years. Apart from where I grew up in New Jersey this is the longest amount of time that I've spent in one place and I've loved every minute of it. Virginia is an incredibly beautiful place and I consider myself very lucky to call this my home. Although my roots are thin, I feel as though I have established in a number of ways. I teach its children, write about its history, and was even educated here.

It's funny to read emails from people who believe me to be a threat or think that I am attacking "Southern Heritage" or that I just plain hate the South. How could anyone spend as much time as I do driving to Virginia's historic sites (today it was Spotsylvania) and reading about the rich history of the region and hate it at the same time? I am willing to wager that my knowledge of Southern history is far and away more sophisticated than the people who hurl such accusations my way. It's laughable.

To be completely honest, I love living in the South.

Kevin and Mike,

ie Northern Transplants - I don't have any problems with the ones that married my sisters and in some way became members of the family and assimilated into Southern ways and culture. My brother-in-law is a Marketing Representative for a rural Southern Electric Co., and many of the areas provide power to the communities along the Rivers and Golfing regions. It's the style of Community Government and Regulations that Wayne says the Out of Stater's are always trying to challenge. He's said that he's heard - "We do this differently up North" is a common refrain. Currently, we are experiencing the "Second Great Wave of Northern Agression", and this time they are not shooting us, this time they are just trying to change all of the Local Regulations and Customs. I just came back from a Military Reunion in Charleston, S.C., and many of the attendees were from Northern States who have retired in the South, and my Buddies tell me that love it down South. Perhaps, with Transplants like Kevin Levin we will at some point in time Mellow Him a bit to the point where he will also want to claim Southern Citizenship.

It's a cinch that we are not going to see him flying in Southern Flags though.

Bobby,

With all due respect, the idea of a second northern invasion is silly and really isn't worth much of a response. People having been moving from region to region from the beginning. Throughout the 17th and 18th centuries many white Americans gradually moved south after disembarking in northern ports. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries hundreds of thousands of black Americans moved to the midwest (Exodusters) as well as the North. Stop thinking of the South as static - it has nothing to do with history whatsoever and only fuels an irrational notion of regionalism.

This may slighlty be off topic, but it does involve the Confederate Flag. If we as a people start allowing the Federal Government the ability to outlaw itmes that others deem offensive than we are essentially agreeing to give up our freedoms. If our lawmakers ban the Confederate Flag than where does it stop????? Every single American has something that offends them, should we ban all of those items as well? If you do not like the flag than look the other way. I see more racist up north than I ever have down south. Well, than again northerners (white and black) are more rude and the African Americans are more problamatic up north as are the whites. Blacks and whites get along in the south. We do not need northerners coming down here telling us how to live.

Eric,
There is nothing wrong with the Confederate Flag in Tampa. If you do not like the south please go back up north. I would never move up north and try and tell those people they are living the wrong way!

Hey Sherree, ah yes, "set a spell." Spell is one of my favorites and back home we use it in several ways. Like you we use it as an indicator of time - set a spell, stay a spell. We also use it like most folks to indicate making a word from letters - c-a-t spells cat. Some of the folks back home would still give you a knowing glance if you suggested so-and-so- was a witch and had cast a spell on you. Spell in this case is a potion or incantation - a form of control. And lastly, one of my true favorites, we us spell to indicate relief from a doing a task - give me the broom Sherree and I will spell you from sweeping. Spell is certainly a down home term.

And where I am from we do not "turn off" the lights we "cut" them off - as if they still had wicks like candles or lanterns. If your light switch is a button style then you must "mash" the button and "cut off" the lights.

Thanks Sherree.

When not visiting Kevin’s blog I am on line looking for a job.
So I was a little late getting the news about the Holocaust Shooting.
For the first time in my life I am ashamed to wear my flag in public.
The actions of one man so filled with hate has made it hard for me to
display the flag, what if someone were to connect my view as being connected with his.
My interpretation of what the flag stands for could easily be misunderstood by someone who doesn’t know me.
I’ve not given up on the battle flag, but I have now been reminded of how it looks from the other side of the mirror.
My prayers go out to family of the guard who was killed. And my thanks to the guard who stopped him.
I hope its not seen as a empty gesture but the 3rd National flag that fly’s in front of my home will be at half staff.

May God protect us all.

Dave Tatum

Dave,

First, I think we all share your thoughts and prayers for the family of Stephen T. Johns. Unfortunately, that is part of the history of the Confederate flag and is one of the points I tried to make in my most recent post. Your comments clearly reflects the frustration of having a symbol that is near and dear to you ripped away and used for nefarious purposes. Now, I would first suggest that some people might view its initial use with suspicion, but if we move beyond that it is impossible to ignore the way in which the flag was used during the civil rights movement. Bobby gets around this by suggesting that those who would focus on this aspect of the flag are in need of education, but that is to ignore the fundamental problem of the flag's history. So few people who identify with the flag as you do will ever try to look at this from another perspective. You did and I take my hat off to you. I think empathy is one of the most human of emotions.

Finally, good luck with securing a job.

In case it's not apparent, I want to clarify that my "Damn Fools!" response was one of deep sadness at the sacrifice of life, represented by those Confederate graves, in a cause that I believe was wholly unjustified. What might the south and the entire country have gained from the lives of these young men, and their descendents had they lived to have descendents?

Kevin:

Either I'm too dumb or your too smart ! In my past several post I have tried as beat as I am able to explain the previous post.
Some times I must rely on humor to make up for my lack of education.
After all someone had to build the colleges !
" What we have here is a failure to communicate" (Cool Hand Luke)
So I shall take Mr Lincolns advice for one time !
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. "

Best Wishes to all, May God Bless

Dave Tatum

( “Will you know the bell of Truth When you hear it ring ?” )

Dave,

I'm sorry that I don't know exactly what you are referring to, but I know all too well that humor doesn't always come through clearly in the blogosphere. Sorry about that.

Hello All!

I had an incredible day at Corinth and Shiloh yesterday! The Interpretive Center at Corinth is very well done. There were a few things I think were left out, but these places can only present so much information, and we all know how complicated history is.

Shiloh is absolutely beautiful. I have read so much about it for years, but I have so much clearer an understanding of what happened there now. We purchased the audio tour CD and spent more than five hours driving and walking around.

After the battle, and because of the heat, Grant had the dead quickly buried on the battlefield. Federals were later moved to the National Cemetery. Confederates were put in mass graves, where they remain today. My first reaction upon seeing one of these Confederate graves was "Damn Fools!" With all due respect to the readers of this blog who still want to venerate the Confederacy, and in response to the issue of the "big ass flags," I am not a Southerner and so allow me to quote Southern historian Charles Joyner who wrote:

"I am a Southerner, and I love the South. But I reject the notion that the test of one's loyalty to the region is reverence for the Confederacy... [Secessionists] precipitated the bloodiest war in American history to preserve the right of some southerners to hold other southerners in bondage. In retrospect, it is difficult to see how anyone who truly loves the South can ponder the disastrous Confederate experiment without more regret than pride. When the folly of our ancestors in breaking up the Union, brings down pain and poverty upon three generations of southerners we do not serve the region well by praising them for it."

Just a few yards away from one of the Confederate graves is a monument to the 29th Indiana Infantry. The 29th arrived with Buell on the evening of the first day. On April 7 they were put front and center of the Union lines and endured two hours of heavy fighting. The 29th included two younger brothers of my great-great grandfather who were twins. The twins survived Shiloh, but one of them was later captured at Chickamauga and died in Andersonville prison.

It is argued here that these big ass flags are an offense to African Americans. Perhaps this should be reason enough not to put them up, but I would add that the fight was not only for freedom for slaves (indeed, in the beginning most Northerners weren't even fighting for abolition), it was about freedom for all. It was about whether or not a representative democracy could survive. I am white, and believe I have my freedom today because the United States survived. To those of you who are so afraid of the federal government, I ask, what makes you so sure that state governments are capable of protecting your freedom? I am not a westerner, a northerner, a southerner, or any other regional tag, I am an American! As an American, I say to those responsible for these big ass flags, you have the freedom to put them up because you live in America, but the results of your actions may not be what you expect.

Kevin,

On 20 March 1772, the following petition was forwarded to the King by the Virginia House of Burgesses:

We implore your Majesty's paternal assistance in averting a calamity of a most alarming nature. The importation of slaves into the colonies from the coast of Africa hath long been considered as a trade of great inhumanity, and under its present encouragement we have too much reason to fear will endanger the very existence of your Majesty's American dominions. We are sensible that some of your Majesty's subjects may reap emoluments from this sort of traffic, but when we consider that it greatly retards the settlement of the colonies with more useful inhabitants and may in time have the most destructive influence, we presume to hope that the interests of a few will be disregarded when placed in competition with the security and happiness of such numbers of your Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects. We, therefore, beseech your Majesty to remove all these restraints on your Majesty's Governor in this colony which inhibits their assenting to such laws as might check so pernicious a consequence.

(This was four years before The First American Revolution !)

I have no letters from Henry Tatum/ so what you wish to see I cannot provide.

But on the provided link I hope you will find the information I stated .

http://www.southernslavery.com/articles/history...

Take Care and, May God Bless.

Dave Tatum

( "Will you know the bell of Truth When you hear it ring ?" )

Dave,

Thanks, but I am well aware of the Virginia petition. I admit that I'm not sure what point you are making. Revolutionary rhetoric led to a number of states and other organizations to debate the morality of slavery, including the slave trade. On a number of occasions Virginians debated this issue and as late as 1831 voted against the gradual abolition of slavery. It's a fascinating subject.

Thanks Kevin.

I will be the first to admit " Im a bit radical in my views"
The snub by the NAACP / with regards to the desecration of the slaves graves did come as a surprise to me.
To have anyone’s grave dug up and hauled away in a dump truck to who knows where, violates human dignity. I must add this was not the result of the S.C.V. The contractor who was doing the work was responsible. The S.C.V simply did a dedication for a Confederate who fought for Virginia.
MY next monument will be for Henry Tatum, A lieutenant in the Continental Army 5th foot infantry !
He also fought for independence from a government that was imposing unjust tariffs, and forcing Virginia to take UNWANTED slaves. In the early part of VA history Virginia was opposed to the Crown’s insistence that slaves be used in the new world !
( More information upon request)
So my guess is I will have someone somewhere who is opposed to his monument !
As mentioned I had one neighbor who complained to the city about my monument. I only have two !
One is a white family the other is black. The white family was the one that complained. When the first story A few years ago was in the paper I stated that It “ Aint coming down !”
AFTER this was printed in the paper I spoke with my Black neighbor, I offered to remove the monument if he was offended by it ! His reply “ How’s your new Granddaughter doing ?”

BestWishes to all, May God Bless.

Dave Tatum.

( "Will you know the bell of Truth when you hear it ring ?" )

Dave,

I appreciate your comments and your willingness to engage in dialog.

I'm not surprised that your black neighbor didn't have much trouble with your monument. Like I've said all along it's much too easy to generalize along racial lines about how people view the past. And hey, it's a pretty cool monument. :)

"He also fought for independence from a government that was imposing unjust tariffs, and forcing Virginia to take UNWANTED slaves. In the early part of VA history Virginia was opposed to the Crown’s insistence that slaves be used in the new world!"

Yes, you will have to supply additional information, but please do not send a post-Civil War speech. What I would like to see is a wartime document (letter/diary) in which Tatum says this. Virginia was not forced to take unwanted slaves; in fact, throughout the antebellum period Virginia continued to supply the Deep South with slaves. The tariff argument is not credible and I suggest you read _Modernizing a Slave Economy_ by John Majewski http://www.amazon.com/Modernizing-Slave-Economy...

Finally, I don't know what you are talking about when you suggest that VA was opposed to slavery early on. In fact, the opposite is true by the 1680s as the colony moved from indentured servants to African slaves.

Thanks again.

Sherree, you’re correct everyone born and raised in the South has some special pronunciations of the English language. And No I do not want to start who is more Southern, but my earliest came over 1625 to Virginia.

If I ever meet you we will have to set a spell over a cup of coffee.

Kevin, I will agree with you and Robert to a point. The Truth is that none of us are as correct as we would wish since the South is so complex.

As Dave said More Battle Flags are coming.

Sherree

Your amazing, and clairvoyant. One of my ancestors married one of Pocahontas ’ nieces. As soon as I can figure out how to open a casino, Please come by and you can cut the ribbon. All joking aside I would love to have the chance to meet you in person.
you above all others I have met here are as far away from my line of thinking on the flag issue. Yet the respect you have shown me is not overlooked. Thank You !

Kevin Why would Black folks not wish to work with the S.C.V. ? Good question !
Dr King who was one of historys greatest men said /

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood"

So the answer of why the NAACP is unwilling to work with an SCV member - It doesn’t fit their agenda.
As for the concern over the large assembly at the Flag raising.
I fail to see your point !
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Best wishes to all. May God Bless.

Dave Tatum
( "Will you know the bell of Truth when you hear it ring ?")

Dave,

Let me be clear, I am not suggesting that the NAACP shouldn't work with the SCV. All I am suggesting is that it should come as no surprise that they do not. Furthermore, that they don't doesn't necessarily reflect in any way on the extent to which they work with other organizations. I assume they work with a wide range of groups.

NPR had a piece this morning on a freshet in the hills of Tennessee - sure 'nough when the local person's statement came on she said "the holler turned to mud." New Jersey might be bucolic enough for Hollows but everyone knows that south of there we have hollers. Even a swamp man like me knows they are hollers.

Sherree,

O.K., the test of remaining elements of a "hill-neck" is to find out how one pronounces the word "hollow" as in "Sleepy Hollow." Honestly, I find myself hardpressed to pronounce it in proper form, but it seems natural to pronounce it as "holler." Therefore, the "hill-neck" still dwells within me! :-)

Sherree,

I have to say that I am very pleased with the quality of the discussion of late. While I hate to regulate the comments section I think my hard stance on a few hot heads has improved things over all.

Mr Levin.

That’s the one thing about America, you can protest against what ever you wish to.
But Mr Levin you circumvented my query , When I extended an offer to the NAACP
to help with a violation of human deacency I was Ignored.
You stated "You can’t simply pick and choose how to frame the history of a symbol and expect others to comply or cry foul if they disagree" Isn't that what the NAACP is doing? If I misinterpreted your statement I am sorry.
Kevin why are you concerned about people protecting their heritage ? Has anyone threatened you ?
Eric If you fear for your childrens safety, I-95 North is still open.
By all means do exactly what the Confederate Soldier did, protect what you cherrish most ! If I were in fear for my familys safety I would do whatever nessasary to protect them.
More Battle flags are on the way folks, like it or not ! And I hope you exercise you right to protest them. The more you protest, the more flags will go up. And stay up !
Then people may be forced to realize " Slavery was the sin of a nation"

Take care, and God Bless.

Dave Tatum

Dave,

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to ignore your question, but I'm not sure what you want me to say. Are you really surprised that black Americans would rather not work with the SCV? No, no one has threatened me, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

Chris,

I'm working on getting the fellas headstones. I don't think the VA will pay to move them to Staunton Natl. Cem (where all the others from the area were moved). The Natl Cem is actually at capacity.

Yup, I think the continued pursuit of higher education does make a lot of us sound more like midwesterners. Ha! "Reckon" is something I never dropped and sometimes a little Appalachian (in addition to being a "Pirate," I'm also a former Catamount, so "Appalachian" can be a dirty word when used in conjunction with "State") Germanic slang creeps into my choice of words.

I could not believe the amount of people who showed up for the Confederate Flag raising ceremony in Tampa (world's largest confederate flag located at I-4 and I-75). I drove by and there had to be over 8000 supporters. The news stated anywhere from 6000 to 10,000 supporters showed up. This many supporters in one area should have us all concerned.

And Bobby Lee has a stain glass window in the National Cathedral to boot. Right next to Jackson if memory serves. They are gorgeous but one wonders how visitors see those windows.

Robert, its all this cussed education I have been after - its ruined my local speech. Unless I get my dander up - my daughter tells me it all comes back then. Reckon that is so. As for Yankees in the woods, well, maybe its time for those boys to find a better resting place.

I live in a Tampa neighborhood and I would say most people in the area support the Confederate Flag. I will also say the home value in my neighborhood is between $350,000 to over $750,000. I'm ready to move back up north. My kids go to school where most of the kids where Confederate flag shirts and let me remind you this is about 30 minutes north of Tampa. Florida is very racist.

Eric,

Thanks for the comment. My guess is that Florida's racial problems are no more problematic than in many other parts of the country. Let's not jump from supporting the Confederate flag to being a racist. The issue is much more complex.

Chris,

I know what you mean about re-interred Union soldiers. I frequent Staunton and Winchester National Cemeteries and know of a few that weren't reburied because families in this area were a bit nervous about revealing why a Union soldier was buried in the nearby woods or under the corncrib. I know of four unknown Union soldiers buried in a woods in my home county.

I've been to the far ends of N.C. (I went to Western Carolina for my freshman year... man oh man, Cullowhee was wayyyy back in the hills) and as Virginian as I am, in the right company, can slip right into the different range of dialects of the two regions. In all, I lived in N.C. fifteen years.

Hi Folks !

Wow BIG FLAG ? Who is more southern ?

OK Who is more southern , My first ancestor was Nathanial Tatum arrived in Jamestown VA in 1619, as an indentured servent. Do I win ?

As an active S.C.V. member I appluad the efforts of the Florida Members.
I once asked the commander of Virginias S.C.V. " If the battle flag offendes
so many people why don't we display the first national flag ?
His reply makes sense to me, " If we give in on the battle flag what’s next ?"

I agree What is the next item to be swept under the rug? What happened to Lee Jackson Day ? Well it became Lee, Jackson, King day in Virginia. Then the N.A.A.C.P. cried foul. Lee Jackson Day was moved to the Friday before King Day ! It no longer is shown on calanders, In Virginia, state workers have the choice to have whichever day off they choose.
The NAACP, ( National Association Against Confederate People ) Defies my logic.
Case in point - The SCV did a dedication in Chesapeake VA. Mr Lassiter who was a confederate, had this misfortune of having his grave moved due to urban expansion. His family as well.
That was bad enough, however the slave graves that were directly behind his were put in dump trucks and hauled away. As a human being " This was wrong I said"
I attempted to contact the NAACP several times to offer my assistance, No Reply!
Malcom X has a stamp in the US Post Office, I've no problem with that!
But Just try to put a Robert E Lee stamp in the Post Office, The NAACP will go balistic !

As for the Huge Battle flag Let me quote Malcom X .
“If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.”

My SCV Brothers are standing for something !

http://www.suffolknewsherald.com/news/2009/jun/...

have a Nice Day
“Dave Tatum

Dave,

As far as I am concerned the NAACP has every right to protest the Confederate battle flag. After all, many African Americans identify it with slavery as well as the "massive resistance" movement during the civil rights movement. To deny this is to ignore an integral part of the history of that symbol. You can't simply pick and choose how to frame the history of a symbol and expect others to comply or cry foul if they disagree. That's the nature of symbols. They are constantly being reinterpreted.

By the way, R.E. Lee already has his very own stamp.

Sherree,

I'm not positive, but you just might have a bit of "hill-neck" left in ya! Here's the test... how do you pronounce the area of land generally found in a rut between mountains? It begins with an "h."

Oh, my, I would have to say mountain folk is a case unto them selves - no offense meant. My neck of the woods is so far north and east that we often think we were Virginians - our power company was VEPCO and the major paper was the Virginian Pilot /Ledger Star (although we have a small newspaper in my home town).

Robert, your observation about northern Union soldiers is true - But if you notice we set them apart in a cemetery of their own. A little piece of Yankee land right here in the South {tongue firmly in cheek}. And their kin folk did not stay around or move down to tend those graves (a near mortal sin, you know). [This is an interesting study in itself - the movement to re-inter soldiers].

Deeper I go to my roots in the swamps the more the game is played - locals pronounce my name with a short vowel sound - Mickens - but my folks in the bigger city stick that long vowel in there - Meek -ins.

I must admit, now that Sheree has it out there, I probably will not feel comfortable the next to I say Appalachia - I will be second guessing myself.

Shazam!

"you ain’t [local flavor] Southern until you have family in the southern soil (i.e cemetery)."

Chris,

Applying this rule of thumb to the reality that so many Union soldiers are buried in Southern soil, do you realize how many "Southerners" are thereby automatically created north of the Mason-Dixon line?

Chris, What part of Eastern N.C.? I spent a fair amount of time growing up in that area, in a couple of places from Jacksonville, Greenville, Havelock, Cedar Point, and Beaufort (and, for those non-North Carolinians, it's not pronounced like they do it for the similarly spelled town down in S.C.). That said, too flat down that way for me, though I did spend a fair amount of time enjoying the beaches (primarily Atlantic Beach and Emerald Isle).

O.k., commercial break is over... let's resume the "I'm more Southern game."

Every time I hear about a heritage organization spending money on huge flags and statues, I wonder how much money they spent that could’ve gone into battlefield preservation or museum programming. –ML

yeah, but those things don't tick off Blacks or Yankees. What good is it if it doesn’t anger someone you can’t stand?

Rule of thumb back home from the swamps of eastern NC was (and still is) you ain't [local flavor] Southern until you have family in the southern soil (i.e cemetery). I'm with Robert, let's play the "I am too more Southern than you game." Its bound to [more local flavor] be a whole lota fun.

Ooh, ooh, come on Sherree, let's play the "who is more Southern game!" I'm so Southern, even my closest kin in blue were Southern. :-)

Mike, Take it with as much salt as you like, but I am a Southerner, born and raised in the South, and I also know other Southerners, white and black, who are also of a like mind that some SCV actions do more harm to our collective heritage than good. I was also a member of the SCV for over 20 years...

Kevin the South has been over ran with Northern Transplants the past 30 years to the point that some sections of the South are devoid of anything Southern except the food. So I take that comment bout White Southerner being against the SCV with a grain of Salt. They are either uninformed, hate history or they are Transplants from the North.
On the NAACP I just sharing what a Texas State SCV official said in a speech I heard last year at Confederate Vets Day Activities at the Cemetery.

Sherree Let’s be Honest; All but four years of those acts took place under Old Glory the US Flag. The Federal government could have stopped Jim Crow dead in its tracks but didn’t until Dr King Brought it to the Nations attention.

Mike,

I think you do a disservice to the myriad ways in which Southerners of various stripes remember and commemorate their past. A large percentage of these "northern transplants" your refer to are black Americans who are returning to the region of their grandparents. Atlanta is a great example of where this has occurred. My point is simply that none of the questions posed in this post can be addressed with vague generalizations and a need to see the past/present in a certain way.

What's the line from Shrek when he first visits the towering city of Duloc? "Do you think he's maybe compensating for something"... its what I ask myself when I see things like such a large over-sized flag: what are they compensating for?

For what it's worth, Bristol and Sullivan County as a whole were pretty strongly pro-secession. Indeed, Todd Groce has pointed out how pro-Confederate sentiments were common all along the railroad that ran from Bristol to Chattanooga. (I found the same in Southwest Virginia). Tracy McKenzie likewise depicts Knoxville as a truly divided city in 1861. In Appalachia, that is to say, not even East Tennessee was a Unionist monolith. Not that the complications and nuances of historical reality have anything to do with the "big" issue at hand, of course.

Sorry I meant to write that the Drive to flag the flags will die off when the NAACP calls the dogs off.

Mike,

I've been very critical of the NAACP's stance on the issue of the Confederate flag, but I think you exaggerate their importance here. I do agree that these silly displays of Confederate heritage are in part a function of a defensive stance, but that has little to do with the NAACP. At this point you don't need to refer to black Americans at all if you are looking for a negative impression of the SCV. In fact, much of the criticism now comes from white Southerners who do not identify with the organization or its goals.

These huge public monuments are often favored by regimes and movements that have lost their popular support or at least confidence in their own rightness. I am thinking of the massive "soviet realist" statues of Mother Russia, or various concrete monuments erected by dictators from Baghdad to Jakarta. I don't have the training in psychology to adequately analyze the phenomena, but the over-sized garden statuary attempts to legitimize regimes that have lost their moral or intellectual legitimacy.

In the United States we have been relatively immune to such gigantism, the occasional Rushmore aside. But I fear we are falling into the habit, and not jus the neo-Confederates. After 9-11 my former campus suddenly sprouted a flagpole many times higher than any building on campus adorned with an American flag that my be visible from space. On a typically windy day the flap flap flap nearly made your ears pop. I see a lot of similar big-ass American flags along the interstates these days.

Or take a look at the huge useless monument--the "Freedom Towers"--to be built at the site of the Twin Towers. "We'll show you, we'll build a taller building than the one you destroyed! We win!!" A self-confident people don't do this sort of thing.

James, I've seen similar things written about Kentucky... that there was more Confederate sentiment in the state after the war than during it. Still, East Tennessee was a source of heartburn for the Confederacy during the war.

As my professor of psychology told me nothing or no one can make you feel bad unless you let it. That is something Sherree you need to grasp and incorporate into your life. Life is too precious to be held captive by a Flag. I stated the other day that When the NAACP calls off the dogs over the Battle Flag the energy and drive to fly them all over the South. Don't blame the SCV they are just reacting to the insanity of the NAACP.

It is true that the Confederate flag probably would not have been popular in Bristol during the war, but we need to remember that East Tennessee, like Kentucky, joined the Confederacy only after the war was over ;-)

Kevin, Exactly, and as you also remarked, history does not appear to impede many of those who want to take the path of heritage; heritage actually being the filter that regulates the history that these people consume. There is nothing wrong with the two (heritage and history) overlapping as long as the history guides the heritage. We can still appreciate the heritage, we can still appreciate (to some degree) the experiences of our ancestors, but sometimes it seems that "heritage" is some sort of "dream state," while history is the wake-up call. The heritage guiding the history does little more than serve as the foundations for self-delusion.

Clearly, Edgerton's comment shows us that his "understanding" of Southern heritage and sentiment during the war only goes so far, and it's not very far. Of course, this is no news.

Robert,

Of course it's a ridiculous statement and one that only works to alienate Edgerton from thoughtful discussion. But is also points to what I take to be a difference between the consumption of the past as history as opposed to heritage. Of course, the two overlap at some point, but we ought to ask whether we are driven by critical questions that acknowledge the complexity of events such as the Civil War as well as an understanding of an entire region or are we motivated by personal/emotional identification with something larger?

Every time I hear about a heritage organization spending money on huge flags and statues, I wonder how much money they spent that could've gone into battlefield preservation or museum programming.

--ML

“This is a southern flag. You can’t attack this flag and call yourself a southerner. You can call yourself a traitor.”

The traitor comment is warped and shows no appreciation, no consideration for the many Southerners who have a problem with the flag and why they have a problem with it. Like I've said before, the flag is a layered symbol. You can't ignore the postwar history of the flag and the fact that much of that history was filled with blatant hatred and the fact that there is living memory of the years of the flag used as a symbol of hate. Because the national organization of the SCV allows this and even endorses this within its membership, the organization will not get the respect it seeks. Not only that, but who can possibly take this, as a representation of the organization, as a serious understanding of Southern history? These types of things do not promote an understanding of history and heritage, but I feel they do expedite an ending.

East Tennessee (where Bristol is at) was so pro-Union during the Civil War that ol' Rebel battle flag would have lasted about five minutes. If they were really interested in preserving Civil War history in Bristol they should have hoisted a 34-star Union flag!!!!

Eric,

Good point, but history has never proven to be much of an obstacle for the SCV. :)

It would seem obvious - lose the war, take down the flag. Its appropriate place is museums.