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	<title>Comments on: Nat Turner Lived 40 Miles From the Crater</title>
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	<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/</link>
	<description>Reflections of a High School History Teacher &#38; Civil War Historian</description>
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		<title>By: Sherree Tannen</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9832</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherree Tannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9832</guid>
		<description>Hi Kevin,

I have had a question concerning the use of black troops in the Civil War for quite some time. I am not certain that you can answer the question, but I would like to pose it, if I may. 

Knowing (I assume) the hatred and fear that white southerners felt for black men and women, particularly for black men bearing arms, why did the Union employ black soldiers and put them in such danger? Are there comparison studies to other wars that can be done? For example, were Jewish soldiers put in the front lines to fight the Nazis? Why were black soldiers put in such terrible danger is my question. Also, was the Union high command aware of the unique dangers African American troops faced in the Civil War? What was the official policy? Thanks, Kevin. Sherree</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kevin,</p>
<p>I have had a question concerning the use of black troops in the Civil War for quite some time. I am not certain that you can answer the question, but I would like to pose it, if I may. </p>
<p>Knowing (I assume) the hatred and fear that white southerners felt for black men and women, particularly for black men bearing arms, why did the Union employ black soldiers and put them in such danger? Are there comparison studies to other wars that can be done? For example, were Jewish soldiers put in the front lines to fight the Nazis? Why were black soldiers put in such terrible danger is my question. Also, was the Union high command aware of the unique dangers African American troops faced in the Civil War? What was the official policy? Thanks, Kevin. Sherree</p>
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		<title>By: Naim Peress</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9795</link>
		<dc:creator>Naim Peress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9795</guid>
		<description>Your posts bring up the valid point that slaveowning and nonslaveowning Southerners were united by a common fear of the rebellious black man attacking and destroying their places in society.  Oppression becomes acceptable when the oppressors believe they are oppressed or in danger.  For that reason, armed black Union soldiers were deemed such an affront and a threat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your posts bring up the valid point that slaveowning and nonslaveowning Southerners were united by a common fear of the rebellious black man attacking and destroying their places in society.  Oppression becomes acceptable when the oppressors believe they are oppressed or in danger.  For that reason, armed black Union soldiers were deemed such an affront and a threat.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9768</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 12:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9768</guid>
		<description>Craig,

The evidence is pretty clear that Confederates in the ranks believed that black soldiers constituted a threat to their &quot;way of life&quot; and they also worried about retribution.  Again, I think we need to connect these men to the antebellum culture of a slaveowning society.  All too often we interpret Civil War soldiers in a vacuum as if they simply fell out of the sky in 1861.  As I&#039;ve said before I think the post-emancipation period (1863-65) helped to clarify for white Southerners just what was at stake in the war and may help to explain why they persisted for so long even after the point where, from our perspective, things looked bleak.  In this context, I am thinking of Jason Phillips&#039;s recent book _Diehard Confederates_, Chandra Manning&#039;s _What This Cruel War Was Over_ and especially, Joe Glatthaar&#039;s _General Lee&#039;s Army_ who offers a convincing analysis that should help us think of the threat and defense of slavery as extending beyond a narrowly-defined slaveholding class.

As to your second point, what strikes me is the convergence that I am finding in the accounts of Confederates following the Crater on the perceived threat represented by black soldiers.  The paternalism that Genovese analyzes comes through loud and clear in their insistence that slaves would never fight against their masters unless they were duped into doing so.  Many accounts suggest that they were drunk or forced to fight.  Your point about the interaction between the planter class and poor whites does come out in plenty of other areas, including questions of leadership and discipline in the ranks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig,</p>
<p>The evidence is pretty clear that Confederates in the ranks believed that black soldiers constituted a threat to their &#8220;way of life&#8221; and they also worried about retribution.  Again, I think we need to connect these men to the antebellum culture of a slaveowning society.  All too often we interpret Civil War soldiers in a vacuum as if they simply fell out of the sky in 1861.  As I&#8217;ve said before I think the post-emancipation period (1863-65) helped to clarify for white Southerners just what was at stake in the war and may help to explain why they persisted for so long even after the point where, from our perspective, things looked bleak.  In this context, I am thinking of Jason Phillips&#8217;s recent book _Diehard Confederates_, Chandra Manning&#8217;s _What This Cruel War Was Over_ and especially, Joe Glatthaar&#8217;s _General Lee&#8217;s Army_ who offers a convincing analysis that should help us think of the threat and defense of slavery as extending beyond a narrowly-defined slaveholding class.</p>
<p>As to your second point, what strikes me is the convergence that I am finding in the accounts of Confederates following the Crater on the perceived threat represented by black soldiers.  The paternalism that Genovese analyzes comes through loud and clear in their insistence that slaves would never fight against their masters unless they were duped into doing so.  Many accounts suggest that they were drunk or forced to fight.  Your point about the interaction between the planter class and poor whites does come out in plenty of other areas, including questions of leadership and discipline in the ranks.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig the Marker Hunter</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9761</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig the Marker Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 01:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9761</guid>
		<description>Kevin,
Would you say the &quot;threat&quot; felt by southerners was that of fear of the change in the strata of their society, or more a fear of what retribution would look like?  

Again, not to keep picking on a theme, but it seems to me there&#039;s got to be more than a standard view point expressed by Southerners in their writings.  Rather some range of sentiments on the issue.  Particularly if you follow Genovese logic as to the interaction between the planter class and poor whites.  

Craig.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,<br />
Would you say the &#8220;threat&#8221; felt by southerners was that of fear of the change in the strata of their society, or more a fear of what retribution would look like?  </p>
<p>Again, not to keep picking on a theme, but it seems to me there&#8217;s got to be more than a standard view point expressed by Southerners in their writings.  Rather some range of sentiments on the issue.  Particularly if you follow Genovese logic as to the interaction between the planter class and poor whites.  </p>
<p>Craig.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9740</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9740</guid>
		<description>Interesting things to think about.  

Just to muddle things up some...Southhampton County also produced another famous son; Union General George H. Thomas.  Thomas of course employed a number of USCT regiments at the Battle of Nashville in December 1864 that basically put an end to the Confederate Army of Tennessee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting things to think about.  </p>
<p>Just to muddle things up some&#8230;Southhampton County also produced another famous son; Union General George H. Thomas.  Thomas of course employed a number of USCT regiments at the Battle of Nashville in December 1864 that basically put an end to the Confederate Army of Tennessee.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Meekins</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9738</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Meekins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9738</guid>
		<description>Two red pennies: there is a level of anxiety in slave societies.  Peter Woods&#039; Black Majority about early South Carolina is a good look at that level of anxiousness on the part of whites in an area where slave populations were in the majority.  Often a large plantation would fit this model - a few whites surrounded by numerous blacks - often out numbered by blacks.
Not only did Nat Turner strike in 1831 but in and around 1800-1802 there was a slave uprising scare, if not an actual uprising.  In 1795 some white people in northeastern North Carolina petitioned against the Quaker policy of manumission/ emancipation.  Strikingly the level of anxiety is obvious in the petition:  the second half of the petition includes this list of concerns  &quot;havoc and massacres which have lately taken place in the West Indies in consequence of emancipation; knowing the opinion of the Northern states; of the many hundred thousand slaves around them; and of the infatuated enthusiasm of men calling themselves religious, who are amongst them.&quot; 
The many hundred thousand slaves around them is nowhere near accurate if we believe what we can prove about slaves in northeastern NC but the statement speaks to a level anxiety and animosity towards slaves.  Within a few years this anxiety erupts into an investigation of an alleged slave uprising (May 1802) - but trial put such rumors to bed.  
When freedmen were handed weapons and assigned garrison duty in Elizabeth City in late 1862-1863 local secessionists were fearful - and one woman&#039;s fears published as an exert from her letter to her husband (who was in the CSA army) and what she dreaded most was the airs that the freedmen exhibited.  The sight of these men with a gun was bad but that they carried themselves as men and expected to be treated as men was too much - being soldiers was a leveling of society and one that the white slave society could not let happen.
You can get change back from those pennies if you want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two red pennies: there is a level of anxiety in slave societies.  Peter Woods&#8217; Black Majority about early South Carolina is a good look at that level of anxiousness on the part of whites in an area where slave populations were in the majority.  Often a large plantation would fit this model &#8211; a few whites surrounded by numerous blacks &#8211; often out numbered by blacks.<br />
Not only did Nat Turner strike in 1831 but in and around 1800-1802 there was a slave uprising scare, if not an actual uprising.  In 1795 some white people in northeastern North Carolina petitioned against the Quaker policy of manumission/ emancipation.  Strikingly the level of anxiety is obvious in the petition:  the second half of the petition includes this list of concerns  &#8220;havoc and massacres which have lately taken place in the West Indies in consequence of emancipation; knowing the opinion of the Northern states; of the many hundred thousand slaves around them; and of the infatuated enthusiasm of men calling themselves religious, who are amongst them.&#8221;<br />
The many hundred thousand slaves around them is nowhere near accurate if we believe what we can prove about slaves in northeastern NC but the statement speaks to a level anxiety and animosity towards slaves.  Within a few years this anxiety erupts into an investigation of an alleged slave uprising (May 1802) &#8211; but trial put such rumors to bed.<br />
When freedmen were handed weapons and assigned garrison duty in Elizabeth City in late 1862-1863 local secessionists were fearful &#8211; and one woman&#8217;s fears published as an exert from her letter to her husband (who was in the CSA army) and what she dreaded most was the airs that the freedmen exhibited.  The sight of these men with a gun was bad but that they carried themselves as men and expected to be treated as men was too much &#8211; being soldiers was a leveling of society and one that the white slave society could not let happen.<br />
You can get change back from those pennies if you want.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9735</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9735</guid>
		<description>Please don&#039;t apologize.  I appreciate readers like you who force me to think more clearly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please don&#8217;t apologize.  I appreciate readers like you who force me to think more clearly.</p>
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		<title>By: James F. Epperson</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9734</link>
		<dc:creator>James F. Epperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9734</guid>
		<description>The troops from Southampton would certainly be more sensitive to these issues, and that is to a great extent obvious.  That black men with guns raised all sorts of horrific images is also obvious.  I guess that is where I am with this.  Now, to a lot of folks unschooled in Civil War history, none of this will be obvious, so if that is you audience, then I think you have a good thing going here.

Sorry to be so critical; it&#039;s the end of the week, I guess I&#039;m just in a bad mood :-(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The troops from Southampton would certainly be more sensitive to these issues, and that is to a great extent obvious.  That black men with guns raised all sorts of horrific images is also obvious.  I guess that is where I am with this.  Now, to a lot of folks unschooled in Civil War history, none of this will be obvious, so if that is you audience, then I think you have a good thing going here.</p>
<p>Sorry to be so critical; it&#8217;s the end of the week, I guess I&#8217;m just in a bad mood <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9733</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9733</guid>
		<description>James,

I don&#039;t see why they would have to reference Turner specifically to make the broader point that their words and actions mirror those exhibited when black slaves proved to be a threat during the antebellum period.  It would have been understood.  Let me be clear that I believe white Southerners generally would have viewed what happened at the Crater and elsewhere as something that reminded them of the dangers of emancipation, race war, miscegenation, etc.  

While it may be &quot;obvious&quot; to understand the presence of black soldiers as a threat that doesn&#039;t help us to understand that threat.  I want to better understand why it was a threat.  Why, for instance, was it necessary to mix the black and white Union prisoners and march (and countermarch) them through the streets of Petersburg?  Why were large numbers of blacks executed after the battle.  You can&#039;t simply say that they were a threat since threats can be dealt with in any number of ways.  

Thanks again for your comments on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see why they would have to reference Turner specifically to make the broader point that their words and actions mirror those exhibited when black slaves proved to be a threat during the antebellum period.  It would have been understood.  Let me be clear that I believe white Southerners generally would have viewed what happened at the Crater and elsewhere as something that reminded them of the dangers of emancipation, race war, miscegenation, etc.  </p>
<p>While it may be &#8220;obvious&#8221; to understand the presence of black soldiers as a threat that doesn&#8217;t help us to understand that threat.  I want to better understand why it was a threat.  Why, for instance, was it necessary to mix the black and white Union prisoners and march (and countermarch) them through the streets of Petersburg?  Why were large numbers of blacks executed after the battle.  You can&#8217;t simply say that they were a threat since threats can be dealt with in any number of ways.  </p>
<p>Thanks again for your comments on this.</p>
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		<title>By: James F. Epperson</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/06/26/nat-turner-lived-40-miles-from-the-crater/#comment-9732</link>
		<dc:creator>James F. Epperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4038#comment-9732</guid>
		<description>I guess I&#039;d like to see someone---one of the officers, say---make explicit reference to the Turner rebellion.  Otherwise, I think your thesis is a bit of an exercise in the obvious:  White Southerners would of course see black men with guns as threatening the very fabric of their society, and men from Southampton would be more sensitive than most.  (So would folks from Chaleston.)  I&#039;m not meaning to be ugly-critical.  You also have to examine, as Brooks suggested, how the events in September at New Market Heights and Fort Gilmer play into this.

I wish you luck, in all seriousness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I&#8217;d like to see someone&#8212;one of the officers, say&#8212;make explicit reference to the Turner rebellion.  Otherwise, I think your thesis is a bit of an exercise in the obvious:  White Southerners would of course see black men with guns as threatening the very fabric of their society, and men from Southampton would be more sensitive than most.  (So would folks from Chaleston.)  I&#8217;m not meaning to be ugly-critical.  You also have to examine, as Brooks suggested, how the events in September at New Market Heights and Fort Gilmer play into this.</p>
<p>I wish you luck, in all seriousness.</p>
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