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	<title>Comments on: What I Am Not Saying About the Crater</title>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10054</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10054</guid>
		<description>Peter,

Good question.  No, I can&#039;t explain why every black soldier was not executed, but I&#039;m not sure I have to.  Perhaps one way to look at it is to ask whether the level of violence was sufficient given the level of rage and the need to send a strong message to the obvious constituencies.  I also don&#039;t think there is anything surprising about the fact that some Confederates tried to stop the violence and/or assist wounded USCTs.  In the course of my research I&#039;ve found that most of these were written after the war, which raises some interesting questions about interpretation.  Here is one account by Col. William Stewart of the 61st Virginia which was written in 1876.  The following is from one of the manuscript chapters:

More revealing of political currents in Virginia is the account by William Stewart, who commanded the 61st Virginia Regiment.  Stewart almost entirely ignored how Confederates felt upon learning of their colored adversaries.  After twelve years the feelings of outrage, fear, and hatred were absent from the few references Stewart made regarding their performance.  The black soldiers begged for their lives and “were victims of an uncontrollable terror.”  According to Stewart, one cried out that “I nebber pinted a gun at a white man in all my life; dem nasty stinking Yankees” were to blame.  The day after the battle, Stewart remembered a “negro between the lines, who had both legs blown off.” “[S]ome of our men managed to shove a cup of water to him, which he drank, and immediately commenced frothing at the mouth, and died in a very short time afterwards.”  It is no accident that Stewart selectively conveyed two stories that addressed in a post-emancipation world the desire to maintain antebellum notions of racial hierarchy. Not only were black men not interested in fighting for their freedom, but even after a bloody battle white southerners’ sense of paternalism could still be exercised.  Stewart makes no reference to the massacres of black soldiers mentioned in Confederate wartime accounts.   Stewart’s account betrays a firm belief in the inferiority and ineffectiveness of black soldiers and the folly on the part of Union officers who believed that black troops could contribute to a successful operation.  In addition, Stewart’s decision to close his account with an act of kindness towards a seriously wounded black soldier suggests that he wanted to emphasize the possibility of cooperation between the races at a time when the Conservative Party continued to exercise political control in Virginia.   The political climate in the Commonwealth clearly altered how Virginians remembered fighting African-American soldiers at the Crater.

As for Mahone, I&#039;ve read a number of contradictory accounts about what he did or didn&#039;t do to control the violence.  To be completely honest, I don&#039;t know what to make of it since a great deal of the accounts are postwar and must be placed within the context of his controversial business and political career.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter,</p>
<p>Good question.  No, I can&#8217;t explain why every black soldier was not executed, but I&#8217;m not sure I have to.  Perhaps one way to look at it is to ask whether the level of violence was sufficient given the level of rage and the need to send a strong message to the obvious constituencies.  I also don&#8217;t think there is anything surprising about the fact that some Confederates tried to stop the violence and/or assist wounded USCTs.  In the course of my research I&#8217;ve found that most of these were written after the war, which raises some interesting questions about interpretation.  Here is one account by Col. William Stewart of the 61st Virginia which was written in 1876.  The following is from one of the manuscript chapters:</p>
<p>More revealing of political currents in Virginia is the account by William Stewart, who commanded the 61st Virginia Regiment.  Stewart almost entirely ignored how Confederates felt upon learning of their colored adversaries.  After twelve years the feelings of outrage, fear, and hatred were absent from the few references Stewart made regarding their performance.  The black soldiers begged for their lives and “were victims of an uncontrollable terror.”  According to Stewart, one cried out that “I nebber pinted a gun at a white man in all my life; dem nasty stinking Yankees” were to blame.  The day after the battle, Stewart remembered a “negro between the lines, who had both legs blown off.” “[S]ome of our men managed to shove a cup of water to him, which he drank, and immediately commenced frothing at the mouth, and died in a very short time afterwards.”  It is no accident that Stewart selectively conveyed two stories that addressed in a post-emancipation world the desire to maintain antebellum notions of racial hierarchy. Not only were black men not interested in fighting for their freedom, but even after a bloody battle white southerners’ sense of paternalism could still be exercised.  Stewart makes no reference to the massacres of black soldiers mentioned in Confederate wartime accounts.   Stewart’s account betrays a firm belief in the inferiority and ineffectiveness of black soldiers and the folly on the part of Union officers who believed that black troops could contribute to a successful operation.  In addition, Stewart’s decision to close his account with an act of kindness towards a seriously wounded black soldier suggests that he wanted to emphasize the possibility of cooperation between the races at a time when the Conservative Party continued to exercise political control in Virginia.   The political climate in the Commonwealth clearly altered how Virginians remembered fighting African-American soldiers at the Crater.</p>
<p>As for Mahone, I&#8217;ve read a number of contradictory accounts about what he did or didn&#8217;t do to control the violence.  To be completely honest, I don&#8217;t know what to make of it since a great deal of the accounts are postwar and must be placed within the context of his controversial business and political career.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10053</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 04:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10053</guid>
		<description>Kevin,
How do you interpret the actions of some Confederates taken to quell the violence at the Crater?  At least one account, that of William McClellan, places Mahone on the scene attempting to stop the violence against the USCT.  Or, to put it differently, can your interpretation explain why at the Crater the Confederates did not &quot;butcher every negro?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,<br />
How do you interpret the actions of some Confederates taken to quell the violence at the Crater?  At least one account, that of William McClellan, places Mahone on the scene attempting to stop the violence against the USCT.  Or, to put it differently, can your interpretation explain why at the Crater the Confederates did not &#8220;butcher every negro?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10047</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10047</guid>
		<description>James,

Thanks for reminding me of Wyatt-Brown and for pointing out the Smith essay.  I was not familiar with it.  You may be interested in The Social and Cultural Dynamics of Soldiering in Hood&#039;s Texas Brigade by Charles E. Brooks, which appeared a few years back in the Journal of Southern History [Vol. 67, 2001].  He also explores the charivari in analyzing the evolution of this particular unit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>Thanks for reminding me of Wyatt-Brown and for pointing out the Smith essay.  I was not familiar with it.  You may be interested in The Social and Cultural Dynamics of Soldiering in Hood&#8217;s Texas Brigade by Charles E. Brooks, which appeared a few years back in the Journal of Southern History [Vol. 67, 2001].  He also explores the charivari in analyzing the evolution of this particular unit.</p>
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		<title>By: James Bartek</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10046</link>
		<dc:creator>James Bartek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10046</guid>
		<description>I think Kirstern brings up a good point, viz., the idea of charivari (or &quot;shivaree&quot;).  Bertram Wyatt-Brown talks about this phenomenon to some extent in his studies of antebellum Southern honor.  I&#039;ve seen only one instance when someone explicitly connected Wyatt-Brown&#039;s definition to events in the Civil War.  A 1991 article in the American Historical Review, &quot;Chambersburg:  Anatomy of a Confederate Reprisal,&quot; (by Everard H. Smith), describes the Cofederate burning of the town as a vengeance inspired charivari, triggered by the insults of  the residents who &quot;violated Southern standards of propriety.&quot; (452) 

I&#039;ve never really given much thought to this in relation to &quot;amalgamation parades,&quot; but then I&#039;ve never given much thought to the parades themselves before reading about them here.  :)

If a charivari was used to defend traditional mores and enforce the social order, seems like there might be something to it.  Anyone else want to weigh in on this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Kirstern brings up a good point, viz., the idea of charivari (or &#8220;shivaree&#8221;).  Bertram Wyatt-Brown talks about this phenomenon to some extent in his studies of antebellum Southern honor.  I&#8217;ve seen only one instance when someone explicitly connected Wyatt-Brown&#8217;s definition to events in the Civil War.  A 1991 article in the American Historical Review, &#8220;Chambersburg:  Anatomy of a Confederate Reprisal,&#8221; (by Everard H. Smith), describes the Cofederate burning of the town as a vengeance inspired charivari, triggered by the insults of  the residents who &#8220;violated Southern standards of propriety.&#8221; (452) </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never really given much thought to this in relation to &#8220;amalgamation parades,&#8221; but then I&#8217;ve never given much thought to the parades themselves before reading about them here.  <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>If a charivari was used to defend traditional mores and enforce the social order, seems like there might be something to it.  Anyone else want to weigh in on this?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10045</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10045</guid>
		<description>Kristen,

Thanks so much for the references.  I hadn&#039;t thought of tarring and feathering along these lines, but it now seems very relevant to what I am doing.  Unfortunately, Wood&#039;s book does not spend much on the cultural history of violence before the time frame of the book.  I was hoping it would.  Her thesis is that Jim Crow lynchings reflect transitions to modernity and the accompanying threats to the traditional social hierarchy.  

Thanks again for taking the time to comment.  I hope to hear from you again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristen,</p>
<p>Thanks so much for the references.  I hadn&#8217;t thought of tarring and feathering along these lines, but it now seems very relevant to what I am doing.  Unfortunately, Wood&#8217;s book does not spend much on the cultural history of violence before the time frame of the book.  I was hoping it would.  Her thesis is that Jim Crow lynchings reflect transitions to modernity and the accompanying threats to the traditional social hierarchy.  </p>
<p>Thanks again for taking the time to comment.  I hope to hear from you again.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10044</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10044</guid>
		<description>James,

I would have to go back and check.  Hey Bill, are you reading?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>I would have to go back and check.  Hey Bill, are you reading?</p>
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		<title>By: James F. Epperson</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10043</link>
		<dc:creator>James F. Epperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10043</guid>
		<description>Kevin:  *when* did the JCCW give Meade his grilling?  Was it during the previous winter, or during July sometime prior to the mine explosion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin:  *when* did the JCCW give Meade his grilling?  Was it during the previous winter, or during July sometime prior to the mine explosion?</p>
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		<title>By: James F. Epperson</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10042</link>
		<dc:creator>James F. Epperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10042</guid>
		<description>Mr. Tatum:  The evidence is very clear that Gen. Meade (with Grant&#039;s support) forced Burnside to replace 4/IX as the leading division in the attack, and the reason for this was that Meade did not want to be seen as sacrificing the black troops in a forlorn attack.  Meade had been given a very hard time over the previous winter by the Committee on the Conduct of the War, which was dominated by Radicals, and he (Meade) did not want to give them any more reason to come after him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Tatum:  The evidence is very clear that Gen. Meade (with Grant&#8217;s support) forced Burnside to replace 4/IX as the leading division in the attack, and the reason for this was that Meade did not want to be seen as sacrificing the black troops in a forlorn attack.  Meade had been given a very hard time over the previous winter by the Committee on the Conduct of the War, which was dominated by Radicals, and he (Meade) did not want to give them any more reason to come after him.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirsten Schultz</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10041</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirsten Schultz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10041</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;At the root of my argument is the assumption that collective violence cannot be reduced to an undefined rage that is left disconnected from broader cultural, social, and political practices.  In short, violence often serves to maintain a certain way of life....
I’ve found Amy Louise Wood’s Lynching and Spectacle: Witnessing Racial Violence in America, 1890-1940 (UNC Press, 2009) to be quite helpful in fleshing out the extent to which violence functioned to maintain a collective identity as well as a strictly defined political, social, and racial hierarchy. &lt;/i&gt;

Your post, especially the discussion of the parade of white and black soldiers, reminded me of older rituals, including charvari, tarring and feathering, etc., which were, in part, intended to regulate behavior in a community.  Have you read Susan G. Davis&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Parades and Power. Street Theatre in Nineteenth-Century Philadelphia.&lt;/i&gt; Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1986  and Dale Cockrell&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Demons of Disorder: Early Blackface Minstrels and Their World.&lt;/i&gt; New York: Cambridge University Press, 1997?   I have not read Wood&#039;s book yet; does she trace the history of spectacle and violence in American culture?

I appreciate he thoughtful posts and (largely) intelligent discussion that takes place on this site!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>At the root of my argument is the assumption that collective violence cannot be reduced to an undefined rage that is left disconnected from broader cultural, social, and political practices.  In short, violence often serves to maintain a certain way of life&#8230;.<br />
I’ve found Amy Louise Wood’s Lynching and Spectacle: Witnessing Racial Violence in America, 1890-1940 (UNC Press, 2009) to be quite helpful in fleshing out the extent to which violence functioned to maintain a collective identity as well as a strictly defined political, social, and racial hierarchy. </i></p>
<p>Your post, especially the discussion of the parade of white and black soldiers, reminded me of older rituals, including charvari, tarring and feathering, etc., which were, in part, intended to regulate behavior in a community.  Have you read Susan G. Davis&#8217;s <i>Parades and Power. Street Theatre in Nineteenth-Century Philadelphia.</i> Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1986  and Dale Cockrell&#8217;s <i>Demons of Disorder: Early Blackface Minstrels and Their World.</i> New York: Cambridge University Press, 1997?   I have not read Wood&#8217;s book yet; does she trace the history of spectacle and violence in American culture?</p>
<p>I appreciate he thoughtful posts and (largely) intelligent discussion that takes place on this site!</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10040</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10040</guid>
		<description>Dave,

I&#039;m not sure I know what you mean by &quot;fodder.&quot;  Blacks eagerly sought to join Union ranks at the beginning of the war only to be turned away.  And even when they were finally allowed to join they were typically assigned to supportive roles rather than allow them onto the battlefield.  At the Crater the Fourth Division (USCT) was initially assigned to lead the attack, but Grant and Meade forced Burnside to revise his plans.  There is some evidence to suggest that they were concerned that if something went terribly wrong that it would like the black troops were being sacrificed.  If this is what you mean by fodder than there is very little evidence for it.  

The more interesting question to ask is how white Union soldiers viewed blacks in the ranks.  There has been a great deal written on this topic, including books by Joseph Glatthaar, James McPherson, Chandra Manning, and Reid Mitchell.  Black soldiers experienced a great deal of racism at the hands of their white comrades.  Many blamed the Fourth Division for the defeat at the Crater.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I know what you mean by &#8220;fodder.&#8221;  Blacks eagerly sought to join Union ranks at the beginning of the war only to be turned away.  And even when they were finally allowed to join they were typically assigned to supportive roles rather than allow them onto the battlefield.  At the Crater the Fourth Division (USCT) was initially assigned to lead the attack, but Grant and Meade forced Burnside to revise his plans.  There is some evidence to suggest that they were concerned that if something went terribly wrong that it would like the black troops were being sacrificed.  If this is what you mean by fodder than there is very little evidence for it.  </p>
<p>The more interesting question to ask is how white Union soldiers viewed blacks in the ranks.  There has been a great deal written on this topic, including books by Joseph Glatthaar, James McPherson, Chandra Manning, and Reid Mitchell.  Black soldiers experienced a great deal of racism at the hands of their white comrades.  Many blamed the Fourth Division for the defeat at the Crater.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Tatum</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10039</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Tatum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10039</guid>
		<description>Kevin

 Have you looked at the battle from the aspect of the north using the Black troops as fodder ? Just a thought.

Dave Tatum</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin</p>
<p> Have you looked at the battle from the aspect of the north using the Black troops as fodder ? Just a thought.</p>
<p>Dave Tatum</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Pollock</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/08/what-i-am-not-saying-about-the-crater/#comment-10038</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Pollock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 15:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4149#comment-10038</guid>
		<description>Toby,

&quot;While there was no major class division between the opponents...&quot;

You might consider the North&#039;s fear of the Slave Aristocracy, its seemingly ever expanding power, and its continuing attempts to restrict what Northerners saw as their personal liberties (i.e. the Gag rule, fugitive slave law, etc.) as class division.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toby,</p>
<p>&#8220;While there was no major class division between the opponents&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>You might consider the North&#8217;s fear of the Slave Aristocracy, its seemingly ever expanding power, and its continuing attempts to restrict what Northerners saw as their personal liberties (i.e. the Gag rule, fugitive slave law, etc.) as class division.</p>
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