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	<title>Comments on: Are You Sure You Are Waving the Right Flag?</title>
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	<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/</link>
	<description>Reflections of a High School History Teacher &#38; Civil War Historian</description>
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		<title>By: RW</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11195</link>
		<dc:creator>RW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4703#comment-11195</guid>
		<description>FROM: http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=256

Here is a partial list of the tyrannical policies of Southern governments (to say nothing of slavery itself). The central and state governments of the Confederacy:

* instituted military conscription

* used forced labor in their government-owned factories;

* preached anti-capitalism in Marxist terms, denouncing the “wage-slavery” of the North

* adopted military aggression as its foreign policy;

* carried out untold numbers of warrantless searches,seizures, and arrests, starting early in 1861

* seized guns from civilians beginning in 1861(after the war, governments of Southern states would enact
the first gun control laws in the U.S.);

* printed paper money to finance military aggression, leading to runaway inflation;

* repudiated lawful debts and contracts;

* took political prisoners;

* silenced dissent, curtailing freedom of the press, speech, and assembly;

* instituted a welfare state;

* created, in less than three years, a bureaucracy of 70,000 in Richmond to manage the socialist
Confederacy;

* regulated agriculture by imposing acreage controls on cotton and tobacco;

* nationalized control of foreign commerce, regulating exports, raising tariffs, and banning the importation of all “non-essential” goods;

* occupied East Tennessee with thousands of troops to prevent the counties there from seceding from the Confederacy (as the counties of western Virginia did).

SOURCE: THE TRINITY REVIEW, Christians and the Civil War by John W. Robbins

&quot;Here in the South one occasionally hears people refer to the Civil War as the War of Northern Aggression or the War for Southern Independence. They say it in jest, but there seem to be undertones of both resentment and deadly seriousness. Somehow , they think , the North aggressed against the South, an opinion based, not on history, but on Confederate mytho logy. Part of that mythology involves blaming Lincoln, not only for the war (anyone who thinks Lincoln started the war is seriously misinformed), but also for unconstitutional policies that led to the growth of government in the 20th century. This is a distortion of American history (the Progressive Era and the New Deal would seem to be more likely culprits) for the
purpose of defending slavery and the Confederacy by maligning Lincoln and the Union. Some of the pernicious policies pursued by the federal government in the 20th century either originated in the South or were the results of the war the Confederacy started.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FROM: <a href="http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=256" rel="nofollow">http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=256</a></p>
<p>Here is a partial list of the tyrannical policies of Southern governments (to say nothing of slavery itself). The central and state governments of the Confederacy:</p>
<p>* instituted military conscription</p>
<p>* used forced labor in their government-owned factories;</p>
<p>* preached anti-capitalism in Marxist terms, denouncing the “wage-slavery” of the North</p>
<p>* adopted military aggression as its foreign policy;</p>
<p>* carried out untold numbers of warrantless searches,seizures, and arrests, starting early in 1861</p>
<p>* seized guns from civilians beginning in 1861(after the war, governments of Southern states would enact<br />
the first gun control laws in the U.S.);</p>
<p>* printed paper money to finance military aggression, leading to runaway inflation;</p>
<p>* repudiated lawful debts and contracts;</p>
<p>* took political prisoners;</p>
<p>* silenced dissent, curtailing freedom of the press, speech, and assembly;</p>
<p>* instituted a welfare state;</p>
<p>* created, in less than three years, a bureaucracy of 70,000 in Richmond to manage the socialist<br />
Confederacy;</p>
<p>* regulated agriculture by imposing acreage controls on cotton and tobacco;</p>
<p>* nationalized control of foreign commerce, regulating exports, raising tariffs, and banning the importation of all “non-essential” goods;</p>
<p>* occupied East Tennessee with thousands of troops to prevent the counties there from seceding from the Confederacy (as the counties of western Virginia did).</p>
<p>SOURCE: THE TRINITY REVIEW, Christians and the Civil War by John W. Robbins</p>
<p>&#8220;Here in the South one occasionally hears people refer to the Civil War as the War of Northern Aggression or the War for Southern Independence. They say it in jest, but there seem to be undertones of both resentment and deadly seriousness. Somehow , they think , the North aggressed against the South, an opinion based, not on history, but on Confederate mytho logy. Part of that mythology involves blaming Lincoln, not only for the war (anyone who thinks Lincoln started the war is seriously misinformed), but also for unconstitutional policies that led to the growth of government in the 20th century. This is a distortion of American history (the Progressive Era and the New Deal would seem to be more likely culprits) for the<br />
purpose of defending slavery and the Confederacy by maligning Lincoln and the Union. Some of the pernicious policies pursued by the federal government in the 20th century either originated in the South or were the results of the war the Confederacy started.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Charles.lovejoy</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11148</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles.lovejoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4703#comment-11148</guid>
		<description>I see no reason in 2009  to apply  1861 logic  to any of out modern day political causes ot issues ,  Confederate or Union :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see no reason in 2009  to apply  1861 logic  to any of out modern day political causes ot issues ,  Confederate or Union <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11147</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4703#comment-11147</guid>
		<description>I got it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got it.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles.lovejoy</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11146</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles.lovejoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4703#comment-11146</guid>
		<description>My point is in part ,  those like  Thomas DiLorenzo seem to indicate  that the CSA had some type of limited federal power goal and if if had been successful in its secession attempt that today in 2009  it would be the perfect&#039; balance of government&#039;. I dont buy it, nor do I think the USA to day would be the perfect &#039;balance of government&#039;.  I think you would be seeing much the same  in both the US and CSA today as you see  across the globe.   Kevin, the reason I used the term &#039;Fact&#039; is it seems everywhere I go people are complaining about their government. Canada, Italy the UK , Mexico, Honduras ect ect . I have even heard Swiss persons complain about their government.   I just seem to encounter  complainers just about everywhere I go.  I dont see if the CSA had survived as being any differnt than the rest,  it would have its  own set of unique issues and problems.   Maybe Im overly Cynical :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point is in part ,  those like  Thomas DiLorenzo seem to indicate  that the CSA had some type of limited federal power goal and if if had been successful in its secession attempt that today in 2009  it would be the perfect&#8217; balance of government&#8217;. I dont buy it, nor do I think the USA to day would be the perfect &#8216;balance of government&#8217;.  I think you would be seeing much the same  in both the US and CSA today as you see  across the globe.   Kevin, the reason I used the term &#8216;Fact&#8217; is it seems everywhere I go people are complaining about their government. Canada, Italy the UK , Mexico, Honduras ect ect . I have even heard Swiss persons complain about their government.   I just seem to encounter  complainers just about everywhere I go.  I dont see if the CSA had survived as being any differnt than the rest,  it would have its  own set of unique issues and problems.   Maybe Im overly Cynical <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11145</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4703#comment-11145</guid>
		<description>Charles,

I think what you are laying out here is more clearly defined as a counterfactual rather than a fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles,</p>
<p>I think what you are laying out here is more clearly defined as a counterfactual rather than a fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles.lovejoy</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11144</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles.lovejoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4703#comment-11144</guid>
		<description>FACT: If the South was successful in its succession and formed the CSA, today it would be divided into different political groups  engaged in the same type conflict and  debate as you see today in the US, and its people would all be grumbling about its government . Grumbling about what it was and was not doing.  Its northern neighbor the USA would be doing the same thing. Anywhere you go in the world people grumble about their government, that&#039;s human nature.  Most humans are by nature are complainers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FACT: If the South was successful in its succession and formed the CSA, today it would be divided into different political groups  engaged in the same type conflict and  debate as you see today in the US, and its people would all be grumbling about its government . Grumbling about what it was and was not doing.  Its northern neighbor the USA would be doing the same thing. Anywhere you go in the world people grumble about their government, that&#8217;s human nature.  Most humans are by nature are complainers.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11142</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4703#comment-11142</guid>
		<description>Mike,

I wasn&#039;t trying point out flaws as much as I was addressing a discrepancy between the past and our collective memory.  Again, I am not interested in making a moral point here.  Finally, the counterfactual doesn&#039;t really hold as we know that white Southerners were pushing for increased state intervention well before the start of the war to help subsidize and support an agricultural economy.  I highly recommend checking out Majewski&#039;s book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t trying point out flaws as much as I was addressing a discrepancy between the past and our collective memory.  Again, I am not interested in making a moral point here.  Finally, the counterfactual doesn&#8217;t really hold as we know that white Southerners were pushing for increased state intervention well before the start of the war to help subsidize and support an agricultural economy.  I highly recommend checking out Majewski&#8217;s book.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11140</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4703#comment-11140</guid>
		<description>Sorry Kevin it is hard to detect intent and tone on a blog.  I felt from reading the information at the top that the writers were trying to make a moral issue point.  As for Moral Issues I care.  Historically and today.   Since the writers intent is to simpily point out the flaws the CSA government had I relent and cocur with their analysis of the data.  The CSA government was far from perfect and this was made worse by the war. If Abe had let the South go peacefully and with a agreement of transfer of Fed property for cash or cotton the CSA government might have been a better government but I digress.   History show that both abuse our natural rights as men in order to win a war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Kevin it is hard to detect intent and tone on a blog.  I felt from reading the information at the top that the writers were trying to make a moral issue point.  As for Moral Issues I care.  Historically and today.   Since the writers intent is to simpily point out the flaws the CSA government had I relent and cocur with their analysis of the data.  The CSA government was far from perfect and this was made worse by the war. If Abe had let the South go peacefully and with a agreement of transfer of Fed property for cash or cotton the CSA government might have been a better government but I digress.   History show that both abuse our natural rights as men in order to win a war.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11139</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=4703#comment-11139</guid>
		<description>I think it is important, also, to keep in context the expansions of both the Confederate and Federal government as result of the war.  Certainly the basic Republican platform was not one pinned to &quot;big government.&quot;  And there were significant voices of opposition, within the Republican party, to Lincoln&#039;s running of the war, with specific points made about the expanding government powers.  And on the other side of the battle line, the ready example of opposition to the expanded central government is Gov. Brown of Georgia.  (Although I&#039;d be interested to see how many of the 4,000 some odd suspended Habus Corpus cases involved dissent along a similar line.)  

Again, in order to fight a war, governments expand, and often do things the political leaders would probably criticism in other times.   Look at WWII where a pro-labor President was put in the position to place limits on collective bargaining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is important, also, to keep in context the expansions of both the Confederate and Federal government as result of the war.  Certainly the basic Republican platform was not one pinned to &#8220;big government.&#8221;  And there were significant voices of opposition, within the Republican party, to Lincoln&#8217;s running of the war, with specific points made about the expanding government powers.  And on the other side of the battle line, the ready example of opposition to the expanded central government is Gov. Brown of Georgia.  (Although I&#8217;d be interested to see how many of the 4,000 some odd suspended Habus Corpus cases involved dissent along a similar line.)  </p>
<p>Again, in order to fight a war, governments expand, and often do things the political leaders would probably criticism in other times.   Look at WWII where a pro-labor President was put in the position to place limits on collective bargaining.</p>
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		<title>By: James F. Epperson</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2009/09/16/are-you-sure-you-are-waving-the-right-flag/#comment-11137</link>
		<dc:creator>James F. Epperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kevin, I read Hummel&#039;s book when it first came out, and it is very good.  He takes an expected libertarian stance and delves into economics more than most folks, but I enjoyed it.  He obsesses on Lincoln&#039;s decision to oppose secession, and suggests Lincoln considered arresting Taney in the wake of Merryman (a claim he has since backed off of); those are the weak points, I guess.  He has real nice chapter-by-chapter bibliographic notes kind of discussions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, I read Hummel&#8217;s book when it first came out, and it is very good.  He takes an expected libertarian stance and delves into economics more than most folks, but I enjoyed it.  He obsesses on Lincoln&#8217;s decision to oppose secession, and suggests Lincoln considered arresting Taney in the wake of Merryman (a claim he has since backed off of); those are the weak points, I guess.  He has real nice chapter-by-chapter bibliographic notes kind of discussions.</p>
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