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	<title>Comments on: Black Confederates Defined on Facebook</title>
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		<title>By: Faithful Slaves Monument: Thanks, But No Thanks &#171; All Other Persons</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13503</link>
		<dc:creator>Faithful Slaves Monument: Thanks, But No Thanks &#171; All Other Persons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13503</guid>
		<description>[...] tip to cwmemory.com [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] tip to cwmemory.com [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sherree</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13166</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13166</guid>
		<description>I understand all that you have said and I agree with you. Also, I did not think that you were looking for an apology from an individual. I offered the apology because I do not want to be part of the &quot;appalling silence&quot; that Dr. King described. As for grief, I did not begin to touch on it, and cannot because of the forum.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;An apology is only the beginning, and we haven&#039;t even gotten that far yet. Maybe we will someday. Hopefully, it will be some day soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand all that you have said and I agree with you. Also, I did not think that you were looking for an apology from an individual. I offered the apology because I do not want to be part of the &#8220;appalling silence&#8221; that Dr. King described. As for grief, I did not begin to touch on it, and cannot because of the forum.</p>
<p>An apology is only the beginning, and we haven&#39;t even gotten that far yet. Maybe we will someday. Hopefully, it will be some day soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Sherree</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13161</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 21:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13161</guid>
		<description>Earthtone,&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I have enjoyed your comments.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Also, I am sorry. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am sorry that little children were kidnapped from their mothers and shackled in the hold of a ship to be brought to America. (I saw a salvaged slave ship on tour. There was a manacle small enough for a six year old child. Tellingly, the divers who made the effort to salvage the ship were African American) &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am sorry that African women were bred like animals to produce laborers for white men and women. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am sorry that African women were raped.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am sorry that African men, women and children were murdered.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am sorry that 150 years after the Civil War, African American men and women are still suffering from the legacy of slavery.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am sorry that the conversation still centers around white men and women and their needs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am sorry that President Obama has to put up with Trent Lott, Joe Wilson, and Joe Biden and Harry Reid.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am sorry for the long waste and the irreparable loss.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am sorry that my ancestors did not  refuse to fight for the Confederacy.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;150 years later, I am sorry. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There is one apology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Earthtone,</p>
<p>I have enjoyed your comments.</p>
<p>Also, I am sorry. </p>
<p>I am sorry that little children were kidnapped from their mothers and shackled in the hold of a ship to be brought to America. (I saw a salvaged slave ship on tour. There was a manacle small enough for a six year old child. Tellingly, the divers who made the effort to salvage the ship were African American) </p>
<p>I am sorry that African women were bred like animals to produce laborers for white men and women. </p>
<p>I am sorry that African women were raped.</p>
<p>I am sorry that African men, women and children were murdered.</p>
<p>I am sorry that 150 years after the Civil War, African American men and women are still suffering from the legacy of slavery.</p>
<p>I am sorry that the conversation still centers around white men and women and their needs.</p>
<p>I am sorry that President Obama has to put up with Trent Lott, Joe Wilson, and Joe Biden and Harry Reid.</p>
<p>I am sorry for the long waste and the irreparable loss.</p>
<p>I am sorry that my ancestors did not  refuse to fight for the Confederacy.</p>
<p>150 years later, I am sorry. </p>
<p>There is one apology.</p>
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		<title>By: EarthTone</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13164</link>
		<dc:creator>EarthTone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 21:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13164</guid>
		<description>I appreciate that, Sherree. But I want to point out again, I&#039;m not saying that you or any one person needs to apologize for the past. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My point is that America, collectively, needs to create the monuments and rituals and traditions that tell the story of the country&#039;s sorrow over slavery, and reinforce the national will that those acts should never be repeated. That would obviate the need for individual expressions of the type you made.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As an aside, I don&#039;t want to put all the &quot;blame&quot; for slavery on the Confederacy and the southern states. Certainly, the institution was enabled by the acts (of commission or omission) of Northerners. Which is all the more reason that this is something that would come from America, not just the American South.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate that, Sherree. But I want to point out again, I&#39;m not saying that you or any one person needs to apologize for the past. </p>
<p>My point is that America, collectively, needs to create the monuments and rituals and traditions that tell the story of the country&#39;s sorrow over slavery, and reinforce the national will that those acts should never be repeated. That would obviate the need for individual expressions of the type you made.</p>
<p>As an aside, I don&#39;t want to put all the &#8220;blame&#8221; for slavery on the Confederacy and the southern states. Certainly, the institution was enabled by the acts (of commission or omission) of Northerners. Which is all the more reason that this is something that would come from America, not just the American South.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13159</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 03:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13159</guid>
		<description>Historically I have always thought Charleston SC would be the best place for the monument you speak of.    The Ellis Island of Slavery and the start of the Civil War.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historically I have always thought Charleston SC would be the best place for the monument you speak of.    The Ellis Island of Slavery and the start of the Civil War.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13157</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13157</guid>
		<description>Thanks for taking the time to write such thoughtful comments and thanks for the compliment.  I do hope that you will continue to visit and share in the discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for taking the time to write such thoughtful comments and thanks for the compliment.  I do hope that you will continue to visit and share in the discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: EarthTone</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13155</link>
		<dc:creator>EarthTone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13155</guid>
		<description>Kevin, I appreciate all the comments you&#039;ve made about asking the right questions.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I was on a blog recently where a person made the point that Southern slavery was considered &quot;humane.&quot; To which I asked: is that what the slaves believed? What was their opinion, and doesn&#039;t their opinion count?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I made the point that, so much of CW history is viewed from the poles of North and South. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But there are two other sides of the war. Instead of looking at the war from the perspective of North and South, why not look at it through the eyes of the enslaved and un-enslaved?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I can go to the bookstore and at any one time and see several books about specific CW battles, and some about specific CW figures. But there is a paucity of books about the Southern slave experience during the war.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And of course, lack of historical record is a problem. But it just amazes me to see how little there is to say about the lives of  some 3 million people from that era, especially given how much is available concerning other aspects of the war. These Black Confederate myth-makers are basically filling a vacuum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, I appreciate all the comments you&#39;ve made about asking the right questions.</p>
<p>I was on a blog recently where a person made the point that Southern slavery was considered &#8220;humane.&#8221; To which I asked: is that what the slaves believed? What was their opinion, and doesn&#39;t their opinion count?</p>
<p>I made the point that, so much of CW history is viewed from the poles of North and South. </p>
<p>But there are two other sides of the war. Instead of looking at the war from the perspective of North and South, why not look at it through the eyes of the enslaved and un-enslaved?</p>
<p>I can go to the bookstore and at any one time and see several books about specific CW battles, and some about specific CW figures. But there is a paucity of books about the Southern slave experience during the war.</p>
<p>And of course, lack of historical record is a problem. But it just amazes me to see how little there is to say about the lives of  some 3 million people from that era, especially given how much is available concerning other aspects of the war. These Black Confederate myth-makers are basically filling a vacuum.</p>
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		<title>By: EarthTone</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13152</link>
		<dc:creator>EarthTone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13152</guid>
		<description>{ No one living today nearly 150 years later has any Moral or Ethical Reason to apologized for some thing done before we were even thought of. }&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;To be clear, I am not asking YOU or anyone alive to express sorrow. I am saying that the country, as part of its traditions and rituals, should make an acknowledgement of what was done to the slaves. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In Berlin, there is a Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, which is also known as the Holocaust Memorial.  It memorializes the Jewish victims and other victims of the Holocaust. It consists of a 4.7 acre site covered with 2,711 concrete slabs arranged in a grid pattern. It also includes statues of non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust at its corners.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It stands as a LASTING reminder of the injustice done to the Jews. Hundreds of years from now, after the people of the Nazi era are all Dead and Gone, it will still be there. And it should be.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; I absolutely feel there should be such a monument in the US.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;msimons, you are right. Closure is what we make of it. The message any objective person gets from  the memorials dedicated to the CW is that there was no never an expression of sorrow or guilt concerning the enslavement of blacks. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Is this the historical memory we want to leave to future generations?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;=&gt; I hope that no one will feel I&#039;m playing the Nazi card. I am not saying that the treatment of the slaves was the same as the treatment of Nazi-era Jews (although others might do so). But it is absolutely clear that the slaves were the subjects of grave physical, social, economic, and political injustice. Certainly the memory of this deserves more than a monument that says &quot;thanks for your loyal service.&quot;&lt;br&gt;***&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;{I try to see the monuments in their Historical context and ask Why they made them and what does it mean to us today.}&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Agreed. And after all of that, I find the monument to be, perhaps well-intentioned, but ultimately  self-serving and hollow. That&#039;s what it means to me today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>{ No one living today nearly 150 years later has any Moral or Ethical Reason to apologized for some thing done before we were even thought of. }</p>
<p>To be clear, I am not asking YOU or anyone alive to express sorrow. I am saying that the country, as part of its traditions and rituals, should make an acknowledgement of what was done to the slaves. </p>
<p>In Berlin, there is a Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, which is also known as the Holocaust Memorial.  It memorializes the Jewish victims and other victims of the Holocaust. It consists of a 4.7 acre site covered with 2,711 concrete slabs arranged in a grid pattern. It also includes statues of non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust at its corners.</p>
<p>It stands as a LASTING reminder of the injustice done to the Jews. Hundreds of years from now, after the people of the Nazi era are all Dead and Gone, it will still be there. And it should be.</p>
<p> I absolutely feel there should be such a monument in the US.</p>
<p>msimons, you are right. Closure is what we make of it. The message any objective person gets from  the memorials dedicated to the CW is that there was no never an expression of sorrow or guilt concerning the enslavement of blacks. </p>
<p>Is this the historical memory we want to leave to future generations?</p>
<p>=&gt; I hope that no one will feel I&#39;m playing the Nazi card. I am not saying that the treatment of the slaves was the same as the treatment of Nazi-era Jews (although others might do so). But it is absolutely clear that the slaves were the subjects of grave physical, social, economic, and political injustice. Certainly the memory of this deserves more than a monument that says &#8220;thanks for your loyal service.&#8221;<br />***</p>
<p>{I try to see the monuments in their Historical context and ask Why they made them and what does it mean to us today.}</p>
<p>Agreed. And after all of that, I find the monument to be, perhaps well-intentioned, but ultimately  self-serving and hollow. That&#39;s what it means to me today.</p>
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		<title>By: msimons</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13150</link>
		<dc:creator>msimons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13150</guid>
		<description>The parties wronged and those who should say I&#039;m sorry are all Dead and Gone.  No one living today nearly 150 years later has any Moral or Ethical Reason to apologized for some thing done before we were even thought of.    I try to see the monuments in their Historical context  and ask Why they made them and what does it mean to us today. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for as this Closure issue  YOU choose for it to be closed or not. YOU chose your reactions to the CW no one else can force you to like it or dislike it.   If  folks have Closure issues about the CW that is affecting them in a negative way then they need to Call Dr. Phil or some other counselor and get some help.   Live is way too short to play the Victim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The parties wronged and those who should say I&#39;m sorry are all Dead and Gone.  No one living today nearly 150 years later has any Moral or Ethical Reason to apologized for some thing done before we were even thought of.    I try to see the monuments in their Historical context  and ask Why they made them and what does it mean to us today. </p>
<p>As for as this Closure issue  YOU choose for it to be closed or not. YOU chose your reactions to the CW no one else can force you to like it or dislike it.   If  folks have Closure issues about the CW that is affecting them in a negative way then they need to Call Dr. Phil or some other counselor and get some help.   Live is way too short to play the Victim.</p>
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		<title>By: EarthTone</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13148</link>
		<dc:creator>EarthTone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 20:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13148</guid>
		<description>I found that memorial to be perverse {perversion - the action of perverting something (turning it to a wrong use)}.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am going to describe the memorial with a metaphor that some might find objectionable. To me, that memorial is akin to a rapist thanking a rape victim for being quiet during the act, thereby not alerting others to what was happening.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In both cases, thanks are being given for an act that benefits the victimizer, but does nothing to help the victim. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That memorial is all about what the slaves did for the Confederacy. I want to know, what did the Confederacy do for the slaves?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In some book I read - perhaps if was Franklin&#039;s &quot;Runaway Slaves: Rebels on the Plantation&quot; - there was a story about a runaway slave who was returned to his master. The master says, &quot;didn&#039;t I feed you well?... didn&#039;t I dress you well?... didn&#039;t I treat you well?&quot; The slavemaster just didn&#039;t get it.  He gave the slave everything, but that which the slave wanted most: freedom.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So, I find this memorial to be self-serving and hollow. Thanking a slave for being a good slave... that doesn&#039;t resonate with me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;***&lt;br&gt;Here&#039;s a memorial I&#039;d like to see. It features a huge statue, with a group of white men on one side, and a group of slaves on the other. The white men include Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens, John C. Calhon. Their mouths are open, their faces etched with a mournful apology.  On the other side, the slaves have a blank but measuring stare, as if they are trying to make sense of words that they never expected to hear.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the base of the monument, there are two words: &quot;We&#039;re Sorry.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Are there any such monuments in the South?&lt;br&gt;***&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think the blog author has sometimes asked, what could be done to spur African American interest in the  Civil War? The problem with the Civil War is, it has no sense of closure about it for black folks.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That closure would come from an expression of sorrow, and a request for forgiveness by the victimizer; followed by the granting of forgiveness. But that&#039;s never happened.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What did happen, historically, is that black were freed, given a huge does of hope during the Reconstruction, and then, suffered a loss of hope during the Redemption/Nadir. It wasn&#039;t until the Civil Rights movement that there was a sense that blacks were truly free. Which is why the Civil Rights Movement means so much more to blacks, IMO.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I appreciate MLK Jr Day. But if we could have had a National Day of Atonement, where the country expressed grief for the enslavement of blacks, and a renewed effort to fight any discrimination  based on race, creed, or nationality, I think the country would have been better served.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found that memorial to be perverse {perversion &#8211; the action of perverting something (turning it to a wrong use)}.</p>
<p>I am going to describe the memorial with a metaphor that some might find objectionable. To me, that memorial is akin to a rapist thanking a rape victim for being quiet during the act, thereby not alerting others to what was happening.</p>
<p>In both cases, thanks are being given for an act that benefits the victimizer, but does nothing to help the victim. </p>
<p>That memorial is all about what the slaves did for the Confederacy. I want to know, what did the Confederacy do for the slaves?</p>
<p>In some book I read &#8211; perhaps if was Franklin&#39;s &#8220;Runaway Slaves: Rebels on the Plantation&#8221; &#8211; there was a story about a runaway slave who was returned to his master. The master says, &#8220;didn&#39;t I feed you well?&#8230; didn&#39;t I dress you well?&#8230; didn&#39;t I treat you well?&#8221; The slavemaster just didn&#39;t get it.  He gave the slave everything, but that which the slave wanted most: freedom.</p>
<p>So, I find this memorial to be self-serving and hollow. Thanking a slave for being a good slave&#8230; that doesn&#39;t resonate with me.</p>
<p>***<br />Here&#39;s a memorial I&#39;d like to see. It features a huge statue, with a group of white men on one side, and a group of slaves on the other. The white men include Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens, John C. Calhon. Their mouths are open, their faces etched with a mournful apology.  On the other side, the slaves have a blank but measuring stare, as if they are trying to make sense of words that they never expected to hear.</p>
<p>On the base of the monument, there are two words: &#8220;We&#39;re Sorry.&#8221;</p>
<p>Are there any such monuments in the South?<br />***</p>
<p>I think the blog author has sometimes asked, what could be done to spur African American interest in the  Civil War? The problem with the Civil War is, it has no sense of closure about it for black folks.</p>
<p>That closure would come from an expression of sorrow, and a request for forgiveness by the victimizer; followed by the granting of forgiveness. But that&#39;s never happened.</p>
<p>What did happen, historically, is that black were freed, given a huge does of hope during the Reconstruction, and then, suffered a loss of hope during the Redemption/Nadir. It wasn&#39;t until the Civil Rights movement that there was a sense that blacks were truly free. Which is why the Civil Rights Movement means so much more to blacks, IMO.</p>
<p>I appreciate MLK Jr Day. But if we could have had a National Day of Atonement, where the country expressed grief for the enslavement of blacks, and a renewed effort to fight any discrimination  based on race, creed, or nationality, I think the country would have been better served.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13156</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 18:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13156</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much for taking the time to write such thoughtful comments and thanks for the compliment.  I do hope that you will continue to read and comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for taking the time to write such thoughtful comments and thanks for the compliment.  I do hope that you will continue to read and comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Brooks D. Simpson</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/01/01/black-confederates-defined-on-facebook/#comment-13048</link>
		<dc:creator>Brooks D. Simpson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 09:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=5813#comment-13048</guid>
		<description>Anyway, the only way Oklahoma&#039;s &quot;north&quot; is that it&#039;s north of Texas.  :)  Then again, having seen what happened in Boston in 1975, I&#039;ve never though race was a southern problem (or, having lived in Arizona, just a black/white problem).  Still there&#039;s something rather unsttling about those Reconstruction incidents that to my mind are matched, timewise, by the 1863 NYC draft riot, which was also rather ugly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyway, the only way Oklahoma&#39;s &#8220;north&#8221; is that it&#39;s north of Texas.  <img src='http://cwmemory.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   Then again, having seen what happened in Boston in 1975, I&#39;ve never though race was a southern problem (or, having lived in Arizona, just a black/white problem).  Still there&#39;s something rather unsttling about those Reconstruction incidents that to my mind are matched, timewise, by the 1863 NYC draft riot, which was also rather ugly.</p>
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