<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Patrick Cleburne and Black Confederates Take Hollywood</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/</link>
	<description>Where History, Heritage, and Education Intersect</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 19:35:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Margaret D. Blough</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-30847</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret D. Blough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2011 02:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-30847</guid>
		<description>Forester-You&#039;re right. There&#039;s no basis for that characterization of Gen. Walker. According to Craig Symonds&#039; biography of Cleburne, Walker was &quot;a pedantic and literal-minded stickler for detail.&quot;  That makes Walker obtaining the copy of Cleburne&#039;s proposal that he sent to Richmond from Cleburne himself very much in character for Walker. In making the request, Walker informed Cleburne as to why he wanted a copy before Cleburne turned it over to him.

The idea of a slave going around the Army of Tennessee or any Confederate army announcing he wanted to be a soldier stretches credulity beyond recognition. 

From Symonds&#039; characterization, Cleburne, as a relative newcomer to the South, was indifferent to slavery &amp; to slaves, although he realized as a practical matter that no proposal to make slaves into soldiers could possibly be successful without a commitment to free the slaves and their families.  His focus was on the fact that the Confederacy was rapidly exhausting its supply of white males of military age &amp; that, if it did not come up with an another source of supply,  defeat and the end of an independent South was inevitable. Cleburne seems to have totally failed to comprehend what the implications of his proposal would mean to fellow officers born and raised under Calhoun&#039;s doctrine of slavery as a positive good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forester-You&#8217;re right. There&#8217;s no basis for that characterization of Gen. Walker. According to Craig Symonds&#8217; biography of Cleburne, Walker was &#8220;a pedantic and literal-minded stickler for detail.&#8221;  That makes Walker obtaining the copy of Cleburne&#8217;s proposal that he sent to Richmond from Cleburne himself very much in character for Walker. In making the request, Walker informed Cleburne as to why he wanted a copy before Cleburne turned it over to him.</p>
<p>The idea of a slave going around the Army of Tennessee or any Confederate army announcing he wanted to be a soldier stretches credulity beyond recognition. </p>
<p>From Symonds&#8217; characterization, Cleburne, as a relative newcomer to the South, was indifferent to slavery &amp; to slaves, although he realized as a practical matter that no proposal to make slaves into soldiers could possibly be successful without a commitment to free the slaves and their families.  His focus was on the fact that the Confederacy was rapidly exhausting its supply of white males of military age &amp; that, if it did not come up with an another source of supply,  defeat and the end of an independent South was inevitable. Cleburne seems to have totally failed to comprehend what the implications of his proposal would mean to fellow officers born and raised under Calhoun&#8217;s doctrine of slavery as a positive good.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-30802</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-30802</guid>
		<description>I am going to have to order a copy.  Thanks again for the comments, Forester.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am going to have to order a copy.  Thanks again for the comments, Forester.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Forester</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-30797</link>
		<dc:creator>Forester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-30797</guid>
		<description>The inaccuracies are mainly in the portrayal of Cleburne, which the author acknowledges as biased.  General Hood is made into the villain of the piece, effectively sending Cleburne to his death over the proposal.  Cleburne&#039;s character is a very 20th Century Lost Cause character, though everyone else is obviously pro-slavery.  In a big leap of inaccuracy, Cleburne actually advocates &quot;emancipation of the entire race&quot; in his speech, which contradicts what I&#039;ve read of his real life quotes where he referred to &quot;slaves and other property.&quot;  So yeah .... Cleburne is insanely whitewashed.

Likewise, General Walker is made into a severe villain.  There is a black guy named Ned trying to be a Reb solider, and Walker hates him.  He tries to pay him to leave, and when that doesn&#039;t work, he puts a gun to his head and says &quot;get on home, nigger.&quot;  I don&#039;t anything about Walker, but it seems wrong to write such violent and racist actions into someone&#039;s life if it never happened.  Even if he was a violent and racist man, I don&#039;t like making up damning things about real people.  Murphy should&#039;ve used a fictional character for that scene.

Speaking of Ned the token Black Guy, he is so hated by the other Rebs that someone kills his mule (probably General Walker).  If Murphy was trying to show a kinder, gentler South, he didn&#039;t succeed.  Cleburne ends up being a lone Oscar Schindler in a sea of Nazis.  At the end of the novel, Cleburne gives Ned the location of his lost wife and children, and allows Ned to dessert before the Battle of Franklin.  Cleburne laments the failure of his proposal, and says he failed Ned.  Ned replies, &quot;No sir, you didn&#039;t fail, you saw us as something no one else would ... you saw us as men.  God be with you, General.&quot;  And Cleburne replies, &quot;And you, Soldier.&quot;   (The dialog was sugary enough to cause diabetes).  But its pretty obvious that there weren&#039;t any Black Confederates (except for the fictional Ned) and that no one wanted them.

On the last page, Murphy recommends a book about Black Confederates, &quot;Black Southerners In Gray&quot; by Arthur W. Bergeron Jr (which has Silas Chandler on the cover).  So Murphy has a Black Confederate agenda, but he pretty much left it out of the story.  If I was a total newbie reading his novel, I would come away thinking there were NOT any Black Confederate soldiers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The inaccuracies are mainly in the portrayal of Cleburne, which the author acknowledges as biased.  General Hood is made into the villain of the piece, effectively sending Cleburne to his death over the proposal.  Cleburne&#8217;s character is a very 20th Century Lost Cause character, though everyone else is obviously pro-slavery.  In a big leap of inaccuracy, Cleburne actually advocates &#8220;emancipation of the entire race&#8221; in his speech, which contradicts what I&#8217;ve read of his real life quotes where he referred to &#8220;slaves and other property.&#8221;  So yeah &#8230;. Cleburne is insanely whitewashed.</p>
<p>Likewise, General Walker is made into a severe villain.  There is a black guy named Ned trying to be a Reb solider, and Walker hates him.  He tries to pay him to leave, and when that doesn&#8217;t work, he puts a gun to his head and says &#8220;get on home, nigger.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t anything about Walker, but it seems wrong to write such violent and racist actions into someone&#8217;s life if it never happened.  Even if he was a violent and racist man, I don&#8217;t like making up damning things about real people.  Murphy should&#8217;ve used a fictional character for that scene.</p>
<p>Speaking of Ned the token Black Guy, he is so hated by the other Rebs that someone kills his mule (probably General Walker).  If Murphy was trying to show a kinder, gentler South, he didn&#8217;t succeed.  Cleburne ends up being a lone Oscar Schindler in a sea of Nazis.  At the end of the novel, Cleburne gives Ned the location of his lost wife and children, and allows Ned to dessert before the Battle of Franklin.  Cleburne laments the failure of his proposal, and says he failed Ned.  Ned replies, &#8220;No sir, you didn&#8217;t fail, you saw us as something no one else would &#8230; you saw us as men.  God be with you, General.&#8221;  And Cleburne replies, &#8220;And you, Soldier.&#8221;   (The dialog was sugary enough to cause diabetes).  But its pretty obvious that there weren&#8217;t any Black Confederates (except for the fictional Ned) and that no one wanted them.</p>
<p>On the last page, Murphy recommends a book about Black Confederates, &#8220;Black Southerners In Gray&#8221; by Arthur W. Bergeron Jr (which has Silas Chandler on the cover).  So Murphy has a Black Confederate agenda, but he pretty much left it out of the story.  If I was a total newbie reading his novel, I would come away thinking there were NOT any Black Confederate soldiers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-30779</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:00:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-30779</guid>
		<description>No, I didn&#039;t read it.  My comments were based on the information available at the time.  It looked pretty bad in terms of historical accuracy, but it looks like it could have been much worse.  Thanks for taking the time to comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I didn&#8217;t read it.  My comments were based on the information available at the time.  It looked pretty bad in terms of historical accuracy, but it looks like it could have been much worse.  Thanks for taking the time to comment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Forester</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-30778</link>
		<dc:creator>Forester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-30778</guid>
		<description>Hey, Kevin.  Have you heard anything about this movie lately?  I doubt it will actually happen.

Also, did you read the actual graphic novel?  All historical issues aside, the book was damn good (for the illustrations if nothing else).  And it didn&#039;t really make any false Black Confederate claims in the comic itself.  There was one black confederate &quot;soldier&quot; who was clearly equal to the whites, but NEVER accepted.  And the context of the story made it pretty clear that he alone in his &quot;support&quot; of whites who didn&#039;t want him.  Most of the Rebs were blatantly racist and opposed to any notion of black soldiers.

Granted it&#039;s full of ungodly errors, and Cleburne is made into a Christ-like hero, but I was in a comic book store looking for a comic book with good art and no Spandex, which I found.  I&#039;d like to hear your thoughts if you ever do read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Kevin.  Have you heard anything about this movie lately?  I doubt it will actually happen.</p>
<p>Also, did you read the actual graphic novel?  All historical issues aside, the book was damn good (for the illustrations if nothing else).  And it didn&#8217;t really make any false Black Confederate claims in the comic itself.  There was one black confederate &#8220;soldier&#8221; who was clearly equal to the whites, but NEVER accepted.  And the context of the story made it pretty clear that he alone in his &#8220;support&#8221; of whites who didn&#8217;t want him.  Most of the Rebs were blatantly racist and opposed to any notion of black soldiers.</p>
<p>Granted it&#8217;s full of ungodly errors, and Cleburne is made into a Christ-like hero, but I was in a comic book store looking for a comic book with good art and no Spandex, which I found.  I&#8217;d like to hear your thoughts if you ever do read it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-27537</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 17:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-27537</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment, but I have not followed up on this story since this post.  I have absolutely no faith that it will offer a serious interpretation of Cleburne.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment, but I have not followed up on this story since this post.  I have absolutely no faith that it will offer a serious interpretation of Cleburne.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: K J Rinkus</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-27535</link>
		<dc:creator>K J Rinkus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 17:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-27535</guid>
		<description>Does anyone else have a really, really bad feeling about this proposed movie?  I&#039;ve read extevsively about the Civil War and own close to 300 books on the subject, including the graphic novel mentioned (in which I found errors, by the way).  My special interest is the Army of Tennessee and Cleburne in particular.  If there&#039;s a Civil War book published and Cleburne&#039;s name is in the index, I have it.  Sorry I came so late to the discussion, but suffice to say,  I&#039;m here now and intend to defend historical accuracy against Hollywoodization of history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone else have a really, really bad feeling about this proposed movie?  I&#8217;ve read extevsively about the Civil War and own close to 300 books on the subject, including the graphic novel mentioned (in which I found errors, by the way).  My special interest is the Army of Tennessee and Cleburne in particular.  If there&#8217;s a Civil War book published and Cleburne&#8217;s name is in the index, I have it.  Sorry I came so late to the discussion, but suffice to say,  I&#8217;m here now and intend to defend historical accuracy against Hollywoodization of history.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Southern Heritage Preservation Group: Straight-Up Plagiariasm &#171; Dead Confederates</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-26124</link>
		<dc:creator>Southern Heritage Preservation Group: Straight-Up Plagiariasm &#171; Dead Confederates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Mar 2011 02:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-26124</guid>
		<description>[...] online at Kevin&#8217;s. It sounded familiar, and it should &#8212; most of it is lifted verbatim from a comment I posted ten months ago at Kevin&#8217;s blog. I later expanded this material into a guest post at The [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] online at Kevin&#8217;s. It sounded familiar, and it should &#8212; most of it is lifted verbatim from a comment I posted ten months ago at Kevin&#8217;s blog. I later expanded this material into a guest post at The [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-24063</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jan 2011 01:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-24063</guid>
		<description>Thanks Cooper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Cooper.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cooper Hodges</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-24062</link>
		<dc:creator>Cooper Hodges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jan 2011 01:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-24062</guid>
		<description>Kevin, I just wanted to take this opportunity to let you know that this site is appreciated and to say &quot;Thank you&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, I just wanted to take this opportunity to let you know that this site is appreciated and to say &#8220;Thank you&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin Levin</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-20291</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-20291</guid>
		<description>Thanks for taking the time to write.  Do you have any evidence at all that recruiting stations engaged in this practice?  Remember, historians operate on evidence and not supposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for taking the time to write.  Do you have any evidence at all that recruiting stations engaged in this practice?  Remember, historians operate on evidence and not supposition.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: C Frank</title>
		<link>http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/05/patrick-cleburne-and-black-confederates-take-hollywood/#comment-20290</link>
		<dc:creator>C Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cwmemory.com/?p=6427#comment-20290</guid>
		<description>Keven
you wrote to Gary on May 31st.
&quot;Thanks for taking the time to list these sources, some of which I am familiar with. You will notice that just about all of them are Union sources. Where are the official Confederate records that would substantiate these claims?&quot;
I can tell Y&#039;all never been in the military.
I was in the Air Force in maintenance in the &#039;nam years. Sometimes we would either not be authorized, or not have, equipment or supplies necessary to perform the maintenance needed.
We would then go and trade custodianship of various items with other units. If this was not possible, we might change custodianship of some items without the knowledge of the personnel of the other unit - you couldn&#039;t call it theft, as all the relocated property was still owned by the Air Force after the property had changed location.
This was contrary to Air Force regulation, and we certainly would not have documented such actions. In fact the official Air Force records, in at least one case, had the property listed as being a couple thousand miles from where it actually was. 

1) It was the official position of the Confederate Government that Negroes were NOT to be enlisted until March of 1865.
2) Generally, only officers and men of the Confederate Army who were a few pecans short of a full pie would DOCUMENT any Negroes actually being enlisted as soldiers.
3) Therefore, official records of the Confederate Government would NOT be as reliable in this area as either observations by Union troops, or civilian sources from either side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keven<br />
you wrote to Gary on May 31st.<br />
&#8220;Thanks for taking the time to list these sources, some of which I am familiar with. You will notice that just about all of them are Union sources. Where are the official Confederate records that would substantiate these claims?&#8221;<br />
I can tell Y&#8217;all never been in the military.<br />
I was in the Air Force in maintenance in the &#8216;nam years. Sometimes we would either not be authorized, or not have, equipment or supplies necessary to perform the maintenance needed.<br />
We would then go and trade custodianship of various items with other units. If this was not possible, we might change custodianship of some items without the knowledge of the personnel of the other unit &#8211; you couldn&#8217;t call it theft, as all the relocated property was still owned by the Air Force after the property had changed location.<br />
This was contrary to Air Force regulation, and we certainly would not have documented such actions. In fact the official Air Force records, in at least one case, had the property listed as being a couple thousand miles from where it actually was. </p>
<p>1) It was the official position of the Confederate Government that Negroes were NOT to be enlisted until March of 1865.<br />
2) Generally, only officers and men of the Confederate Army who were a few pecans short of a full pie would DOCUMENT any Negroes actually being enlisted as soldiers.<br />
3) Therefore, official records of the Confederate Government would NOT be as reliable in this area as either observations by Union troops, or civilian sources from either side.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

