Comments on: The Burden of Southern History http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/ Where History, Heritage, and Education Intersect Thu, 24 May 2012 16:37:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Barbour is right! In the End the Flap Over Confederate History Month Does Not Amount to “Diddly” « Liberal to Left Musings http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-15032 Barbour is right! In the End the Flap Over Confederate History Month Does Not Amount to “Diddly” « Liberal to Left Musings Wed, 14 Apr 2010 20:42:35 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-15032 [...] The Burden of Southern History C. Vann Woodward, 3rd ed.(Baton Rouge: LSU Press, 2008). For an interesting review see: http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/ [...] [...] The Burden of Southern History C. Vann Woodward, 3rd ed.(Baton Rouge: LSU Press, 2008). For an interesting review see: http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/ [...]

]]> By: Kevin Levin http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-14048 Kevin Levin Mon, 08 Mar 2010 04:03:45 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-14048 I can't speak to what extent young women of the slaveholding class identified with the cavalier image, but recent scholarship suggests they fell in line with the "last generation" of Carmichael's study. You may want to check out Victoria E. Ott's _Confederate Daughters: Coming of Age during the Civil War_ Southern Illinois University Press (2003) as well as Caroline Janney's _Burying the Dead But Not the Past_ University of North Carolina Press, (2008). I can't speak to what extent young women of the slaveholding class identified with the cavalier image, but recent scholarship suggests they fell in line with the “last generation” of Carmichael's study. You may want to check out Victoria E. Ott's _Confederate Daughters: Coming of Age during the Civil War_ Southern Illinois University Press (2003) as well as Caroline Janney's _Burying the Dead But Not the Past_ University of North Carolina Press, (2008).

]]> By: Ashley http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-14039 Ashley Sun, 07 Mar 2010 01:01:25 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-14039 Kevin,<br> I also think Dr. Carmichael's work makes huge strides toward helping to "unpack" the myth of the southern cavalier image. I wonder, however, about whether there was a gender division among the "last generation" when it came to perpetuating the cavalier image--for instance, the cultivation of Richmond's "belles" during the war seems to suggest that women who were coming of age during the war still very much identified with that "old cavalier" image and its implications for women. I'd be curious to know your thoughts, as well as those of any other commentators, about gendered notions of "the Old South." Kevin,
I also think Dr. Carmichael's work makes huge strides toward helping to “unpack” the myth of the southern cavalier image. I wonder, however, about whether there was a gender division among the “last generation” when it came to perpetuating the cavalier image–for instance, the cultivation of Richmond's “belles” during the war seems to suggest that women who were coming of age during the war still very much identified with that “old cavalier” image and its implications for women. I'd be curious to know your thoughts, as well as those of any other commentators, about gendered notions of “the Old South.”

]]> By: Kevin Levin http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-13984 Kevin Levin Wed, 03 Mar 2010 05:41:33 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-13984 Ashley,<br><br>Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think few people would disagree that the South lagged behind the North as well as other industrial centers in Europe. I agree that the younger generation that came of age in the 1850s seemed to identify less with that cavalier image. Again, Prof. Carmichael's work is instructive when it comes to young Virginians. Ashley,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think few people would disagree that the South lagged behind the North as well as other industrial centers in Europe. I agree that the younger generation that came of age in the 1850s seemed to identify less with that cavalier image. Again, Prof. Carmichael's work is instructive when it comes to young Virginians.

]]> By: Ashley http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-13974 Ashley Wed, 03 Mar 2010 02:02:21 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-13974 I agree with you that the "South as backward and anti-modern" school is rapidly growing obsolete; the South was making significant advancements toward industrialization in several cities--Richmond, with Tredegar Iron Works--being one of the most significant. Additionally, you are right that slavery wasn't necessarily "incompatible" with modern technology or industrialization because many slaves worked in these iron foundries and factories.<br> Where I do think the South was distinct in this way was the pace at which it was industrializing, in comparison with the rest of the world; in this category it lagged behind....or, as McPherson would say, the North and parts of Europe were simply "far ahead."<br> I do question a few of Woodward's statements about southerners viewing themselves as "knightly Cavaliers." While many of them cited cultural distinctiveness and "purity" as chief reasons for secession, many of them--especially the youths--thought of themselves as progressive, highly "modern" individuals. I agree with you that the “South as backward and anti-modern” school is rapidly growing obsolete; the South was making significant advancements toward industrialization in several cities–Richmond, with Tredegar Iron Works–being one of the most significant. Additionally, you are right that slavery wasn't necessarily “incompatible” with modern technology or industrialization because many slaves worked in these iron foundries and factories.
Where I do think the South was distinct in this way was the pace at which it was industrializing, in comparison with the rest of the world; in this category it lagged behind….or, as McPherson would say, the North and parts of Europe were simply “far ahead.”
I do question a few of Woodward's statements about southerners viewing themselves as “knightly Cavaliers.” While many of them cited cultural distinctiveness and “purity” as chief reasons for secession, many of them–especially the youths–thought of themselves as progressive, highly “modern” individuals.

]]> By: Kevin Levin http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-13964 Kevin Levin Tue, 02 Mar 2010 21:53:46 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-13964 There should be somewhere around 10-12 posts in total. I hope it introduces my readers to Civil War historiography as well as some of these graduate students to the possibilities related to blogging. Now all we need are the students themselves to respond to the comments that have been posted. <br><br>Where are you guys? There should be somewhere around 10-12 posts in total. I hope it introduces my readers to Civil War historiography as well as some of these graduate students to the possibilities related to blogging. Now all we need are the students themselves to respond to the comments that have been posted.

Where are you guys?

]]> By: Jonathan Dresner http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-13963 Jonathan Dresner Tue, 02 Mar 2010 21:39:26 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-13963 This is a wonderful start to the series. As a non-Americanist, I'm going to learn a great deal about the historiography that I've only seen hinted at by current scholarship. This is a wonderful start to the series. As a non-Americanist, I'm going to learn a great deal about the historiography that I've only seen hinted at by current scholarship.

]]> By: jh http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-13945 jh Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:09:58 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-13945 What an excellent post. I tend to side with a more distinct South but I think there are important points here. I go into that in my own amateur way.<br><br><a href="http://opinionatedcatholic.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-american-south-really-that-special.html" rel="nofollow">http://opinionatedcatholic.blogspot.com/2010/02...</a><br><br>That being said I would like to know his views on what he thinks the whole Scot Irish ethnic issue that is the background and still comes up it appears in a variety of ways.<br><br>Second as I mentioned I do think we should have after a good many decades of migration to the New South to seesome clues about "who affected who" more if at all. What an excellent post. I tend to side with a more distinct South but I think there are important points here. I go into that in my own amateur way.

http://opinionatedcatholic.blogspot.com/2010/02…

That being said I would like to know his views on what he thinks the whole Scot Irish ethnic issue that is the background and still comes up it appears in a variety of ways.

Second as I mentioned I do think we should have after a good many decades of migration to the New South to seesome clues about “who affected who” more if at all.

]]> By: Kevin Levin http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-13943 Kevin Levin Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:57:04 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-13943 Yes, yes, of course. Thanks Raffi. It's a distinction that I almost always acknowledge. That's what happens when you respond at 5:30am. :D Yes, yes, of course. Thanks Raffi. It's a distinction that I almost always acknowledge. That's what happens when you respond at 5:30am. :D

]]> By: Raffi http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-13942 Raffi Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:38:17 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-13942 Kevin, I believe Ed Ayers says that about the Confederacy, not the South. It's important not to blur the two; one is clearly defined, the other is much more ambiguous. Kevin, I believe Ed Ayers says that about the Confederacy, not the South. It's important not to blur the two; one is clearly defined, the other is much more ambiguous.

]]> By: Kevin Levin http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-13941 Kevin Levin Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:14:31 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-13941 Thanks for the comment. If I remember correctly, Ed Ayers once suggested that if you consider the South as a nation it would be the 4th most industrial nation on the planet by the eve of the Civil War. I find this area of focus to be quite interesting and it has helped me to move beyond the standard stories of two regions that fell on opposite ends of the industrial/modern spectrum. Frank's book on the urban south is well worth considering on this issue: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Urban-South-Coming-Civil-War/dp/0813922976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267362622&sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Urban-South-Coming-Civil-...</a> I also highly recommend John Majewski's _Modernizing a Slave Economy_ <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Modernizing-Slave-Economy-Economic-Confederate/dp/0807832510/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267362656&sr=1-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Modernizing-Slave-Economy...</a> which focuses on steps to modernize agriculture through government intervention. Majewski ultimately ends up suggesting that the Confederate government was intended, in part, to continue the push toward a more modern/industrial region within a slave-based system. Finally, Peter Carmichael's analysis of young Virginians from the slaveowning class suggests that they believed a more progressive/modern economy would open up opportunity and guaranteed the future of slavery. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Last-Generation-Virginians-Reunion-America/dp/0807861855/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267362853&sr=1-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Last-Generation-Virginian...</a> Thanks for the comment. If I remember correctly, Ed Ayers once suggested that if you consider the South as a nation it would be the 4th most industrial nation on the planet by the eve of the Civil War. I find this area of focus to be quite interesting and it has helped me to move beyond the standard stories of two regions that fell on opposite ends of the industrial/modern spectrum. Frank's book on the urban south is well worth considering on this issue: http://www.amazon.com/Urban-South-Coming-Civil-… I also highly recommend John Majewski's _Modernizing a Slave Economy_ http://www.amazon.com/Modernizing-Slave-Economy… which focuses on steps to modernize agriculture through government intervention. Majewski ultimately ends up suggesting that the Confederate government was intended, in part, to continue the push toward a more modern/industrial region within a slave-based system. Finally, Peter Carmichael's analysis of young Virginians from the slaveowning class suggests that they believed a more progressive/modern economy would open up opportunity and guaranteed the future of slavery. http://www.amazon.com/Last-Generation-Virginian…

]]> By: mitchkachun http://cwmemory.com/2010/02/27/the-burden-of-southern-history/#comment-13940 mitchkachun Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:31:25 +0000 http://cwmemory.com/?p=6797#comment-13940 As part of a lecture series sponsored by the History department at Western Michigan University, Prof. Frank Towers, of the University of Calgary, recently outlined a reconceptualization of the historiography of the "Old South." Frank presented convincing evidence as he unpacked the "myth" of the Old South as backward, anti-modern, tradition-bound, and therefore "exceptional." I may be behind the curve in seeing this as a completely "new" interpretation, but in any case I see it as an important step toward a fuller understanding of how the popular image of an anti-modern antebellum South to a large extent conflicts with the reality of what he calls a "proslavery modernity"--citing (among other things) the region's urban growth, economic power, industrial output, railroad construction, and other developments that may have lagged behind the North, but which look pretty advanced and "modern" when placed in a global context. As part of a lecture series sponsored by the History department at Western Michigan University, Prof. Frank Towers, of the University of Calgary, recently outlined a reconceptualization of the historiography of the “Old South.” Frank presented convincing evidence as he unpacked the “myth” of the Old South as backward, anti-modern, tradition-bound, and therefore “exceptional.” I may be behind the curve in seeing this as a completely “new” interpretation, but in any case I see it as an important step toward a fuller understanding of how the popular image of an anti-modern antebellum South to a large extent conflicts with the reality of what he calls a “proslavery modernity”–citing (among other things) the region's urban growth, economic power, industrial output, railroad construction, and other developments that may have lagged behind the North, but which look pretty advanced and “modern” when placed in a global context.

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